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Passive xp for arcane

Discussion in 'Fall Further' started by xalien, Aug 23, 2009.

  1. xalien

    xalien Prince

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    Does anyone think that it's way too slow? Playing arcane civ I've waited for what felt like half the game for my adepts to go from 4xp to 10 (stationed in a city with mg and AV temple and having 3 tier1 spell spheres). Reaching 25xp requirement for archmages looks like a mission impossible. Seriously, how do you get them here with arcane trait being so mercilessly butchered?
     
  2. ExMachina

    ExMachina Warlord

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    I always thought it was too slow in regular FfH. FF seems to have slowed it down even more.
     
  3. RogueThunder

    RogueThunder Warlord

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    Are you promoting only spell-related promotions?

    Here in FF, XP gain is a more steady process, it is hower amplified by learning spells, and things like spell extension. Giving your adepts combat promotions will NOT contribute to this boost.

    Also. Having 2 of a mana gives you the spell promotion free--which STILL gives a xp-rate-bonus. Getting 2 of alot of mana can make this process ~much~ faster. Abeit thats a little latter in the game. But with say, 2 of one mana(not unusual) Ive had no trouble getting adepts shooting up faster than I know what to do with them. *shrugs*

    Now. This is with a non-arcane civ. I cant imagine arcane slows it down any ^.^' Potency increases the xp gain rate .70, a little over twice as much as learning a spell. Plus your spells are slightly harder to resist.

    That said, if their innate gain and the arcane bonus is not enough. Sit em on a mage guild city (Another .25 rate bonus...), alchemy labs also proved ANOTHER .25 rate bonus.

    With 2 spells(1 from free promo, 1 from first level courtsy of apprenticeship) you should have a rate around... 2.4 initially. Admittedly it will be going down gradually as your xp gains. But most levels, if not all you should be promoting a spell or spell extension. And hence increasing it by .3, note of course these rates go up a bit AGAIN when you upgrade to a mage. An extra .2 ^.^ allways nice.

    Now that number may not be actuall gain/turn... but... its gona be pretty fast at that point. Mages-->Archmages shouldnt be much more effort at the very least ^.^'

    Oh and if you are amurites and complaining. Stop. Build the Vave of Ancestors and... laugh evily. It gives a .50 rate bonus AND crap like you wouldnt belive. Not to mention their mages guild gives .35 rather than .25... and so on. XD...

    *shrugs* Tho I must say, arcanes bonus does SEEM a little small. Although its where it counts. That extra chunk of gain-rate gets you over the humps much faster I think...

    That said, in FF, there are ALOT more factors in adept-xp-gain ^.^'
     
  4. xalien

    xalien Prince

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    Yeah, I know all that, like I've said
    so they have pretty much the max boost you can give them. Also, damage and summoning spells (and the caster itself) benefit greatly from combat promotions. This and the fact that you can cast only one spell per turn makes giving multiple tier 1 spell spheres really counter-productive - you're wasting a promotion just so it levels up faster so you could give it another one?
     
  5. Kjara

    Kjara Warlord

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    I tend to do one main spell line, and one or two minor situational line(s) for my adepts/mages(say fire or air or death + water or sun or mind or earth or creation or meta or enchantment). That gives them 2-3 mana types at the start, this plus a mage guild seems to get them to 10 exp fast enough usually for me(to the point where I have a decent bunch of adepts able to upgrade before I get around to getting sorcery with most civs). I usually have them sitting with a command post as well(I forget, thats another .5 boost right?). Of course I play mostly at normal speed, if you are playing marathon, it might seem much longer.

    How does free exp scale with speed anyhow? Since you can gain exp from combat at the same rate(aka attack once per turn), it might be that at slower speeds passive exp is less useful(and since its the main source of exp for adepts, it seems too slow). I wonder if it should still be scaled, but not by quite as much as it is currently.
     
  6. xalien

    xalien Prince

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    Yeah, I play on marathon. I've just checked one adept - she has 5 level 1 spells (+1.5), potency (+0.7), and is in a city with mage guild and AV temple (+0.25 and +0.10) - command center doesn't do anything to arcane. So with chanelling 1 (+0.6) that's +2.85 (potency only takes 1/4th of that, how's that for an entire civ trait?) gain rate. During that turn she went from 4.19 xp to 4.32, or 0.13 xp. It'll take her 44 turns to get to 10 where she'll become a mage and get another measly +0.2 modifier and then another 70+ turns to reach 20xp limit. By then I'll be done with the entire tech tree.
     
  7. Kjara

    Kjara Warlord

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    Just a fyi, I'm pretty sure they try to balance stuff on normal first(and marathon being as far as you can get from that is sorta like a poor 2nd world country at the moment). If at some point new feature addition slows to a trickle, they might actually worry about truely balancing other game speeds(if its even possible without breaking normal), but at this point you might have to go in and do some tweaks yourself. Shouldn't be too hard to play with the passive exp speed modifiers(change the marathon scaling factor from 1/3rd to 1/2 or 2/3rds perhaps?) Could do some testing and report back what works best. My guess is that it would be somewhat easy, there is prob a xml file you can make a few small changes for this.

    If you can finish the entire tech tree from shortly after you get adepts on marathon in 70 turns you might also be playing at too low of a difficulty :).
     
  8. xalien

    xalien Prince

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    Well, those particular adepts weren't built when I've got KotE ;). 70 turns isn't all that much in early game, but in a late game it's an awfully long time. Wouldn't hurt to add some buildings in late techs that would speed it all up.
     
  9. Neomega

    Neomega Deity

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    commanders can have arcane training, and arcane training 2

    and of course, there's always killin'
     
  10. ExMachina

    ExMachina Warlord

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    This kinda sums it up for me. Arcane units have basically been designed to make them suck at killing things in direct combat, which makes them less capable of earning XP. The passive XP gain rate is supposed to offset this poor ability to gain XP through combat, but in my opinion it simply is too small to really fulfill this.

    Also, commanders don't come pre-packaged with any benefit at all to arcane units (unless you regularly send them into melee battle). If you pair him with arcane units right from the start, it's unlikely he will ever gain enough "trickle-up" XP to purchase those Arcane Learner promotions anyway. So the commander sucks at helping adepts gain XP precisely because the adepts suck at gaining XP. The way the game works, having the commander lead melee units into battle is the best way for that commander to learn how to teach adepts how to cast spells.
     
  11. Lemminkäinen

    Lemminkäinen Warlord

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    OK, that does indeed look like a problem. If others get their Adepts to Mages in ten turns and Arcane Leaders get them in eight... not a good trait. Supremely marginal in fact.
     
  12. Iceciro

    Iceciro Special Ability: Decimate

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    Potency also makes the spells better, and the resitance chance lower.
    For the Amurites, that double-stacks up with the Gift of Kylorin for stupidly good mages.
     
  13. xalien

    xalien Prince

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    Tower of alteration alone can can easily push the resistances to their minimum, not much use from the potency here, especially if you don't use resistable spells much. Then there's a metamagic that offers the same benefit, just smaller.

    Commanders require some battle command 1 first before taking arcane mentor which makes it that much harder to get.
     
  14. westamastaflash

    westamastaflash Lord Commander

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    Can you get XP by killing things with summons on the adepts?
     
  15. odalrick

    odalrick Emperor

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    Yes. When a summon dies it passes some of it's experience to its master.

    Last I heard it was .5*xp for summoners, .25*xp for everyone else.
     

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