Pathfinders and Scouts ignore borders

[chicorbeef]

I wouldn't mind no embark without returning if they could pass through borders.

I would. It's really annoying.

I like it when recon units become better at doing recon things

 

[crdvis16]

Since 1 or 2 months, pathfinders don't need to return to the homeland to get Embarcation.

You're absolutely right- just confirmed in my game last night by purposely keeping a scout away from my lands and he was able to embark once I got sailing. The tech tool tip for sailing still says units must return in order to embark, though (probably true for units other than scouts?).

I've been bringing my stupid scouts home before trying to embark them for months when I didn't need to...

 

[adan_eslavo]

@crdvis16 You could post that on Github. Small but valuable change to info tooltip.

 

[crdvis16]

@crdvis16 You could post that on Github. Small but valuable change to info tooltip.

Done!

 

[ryanmusante]

I notice some of the balance discussions are created in the main forum. Is this as an addition or after they've been vetted in the general balance threads?

 

[Moi Magnus]

I notice some of the balance discussions are created in the main forum. Is this as an addition or after they've been vetted in the general balance threads?

Main forum:
+ Everyone see it.
- Get buried in less than a week if nobody answer, so not adequate to a discussion continuing after the next version.
- Too much threads in the main forum is bad.

General balance thread:
- Not everyone go to check the subforum
+ Only people that have a minimum of experience do, so it filter complete beginners out of the technical discussions.
+ The thread remain visible even if nobody answer in one week. Which is handy for discussion continuing versions after version.
+ People that search for this particular thread find it easily.

Github (yes, some balance discussion are on github)
+ Gazebo will see it. So are the main coders.
- Most people will not see it.
- It will be closed for the next version.

Reddit:
- Most people will not see it. Including most coders and Gazebo (though he does sometimes)
+ A lot of people that never go to Civfanatics will see it, and they usually have opinions different from the "global consensus" of here.

 

[tu_79]

And people sometimes ask for more forums where to discuss. It's quite complex as of now.

 

[ryanmusante]

Main forum:

Agreed. I use all of them myself so I can appreciate the scattered thought. There are a few whoward mods and tweaks still that I feel should be added to VP base. I'll open a separate thread for each and see what the consensus is. Once I gather it, I'll put together as a single thread in the main. It borderline "bugfix" when it pertains to a modmod that just seems to belong.

 

[Galbias]

This would be a nice QoL feature if doable, Scouts getting stuck inside someone's borders is a regular annoyance, but I can also kind of understand the desire to want to deny them.

This is just throwing an idea out there without knowing how feasible it would be to implement, but what if Scout-line units were allowed to move through someone's territory by an Embassy, rather than Open Borders? So if an AI hates you enough to refuse an Embassy they'll still deny you the ability to move a scouting unit through their territory, and you can do the same if you want.

 

[adan_eslavo]

@Galbias Until added into VP you can use my modmod from my signature link. It's doable in 100%.

 

[TwoPodRay]

I'm not sure what all is in the modmod, but you really don’t even need one to enable this functionality if you’re comfortable editing the promotions file. All you need to do is add “<RivalTerritory>true</RivalTerritory>” under both Survivalism I and Trailblazer I (to ensure you can move through borders no matter which starting promotion path you take).

The file location is: Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\MODS\(2) Community Balance Overhaul\Balance Changes\Units\PromotionChanges.xml

You could add this as a free promotion to each of the Recon units, or to the Recon combat class, but that might not be as easy for those not experienced with manipulating the code in notepad. This change is simply the addition of two new perks for each promotion, though that means you need to at least hit your first promotion to be able to do it.

 

[ryanmusante]

I'm not sure what all is in the modmod, but you really don’t even need one to enable this functionality if you’re comfortable editing the promotions file. All you need to do is add “<RivalTerritory>true</RivalTerritory>” under both Survivalism I and Trailblazer I (to ensure you can move through borders no matter which starting promotion path you take).

The modmod code is such as that but it applies to all units which have RECON. It isn't suitable for only pathfinder/scouts have the ability when there are modern equivalents.

INSERT INTO Unit_FreePromotions
            (UnitType,    PromotionType)
SELECT        Type,        'PROMOTION_RIVAL_TERRITORY'
FROM Units WHERE CombatClass = 'UNITCOMBAT_RECON';

 

[TwoPodRay]

The modmod code is such as that but it applies to all units which have RECON. It isn't suitable for only pathfinder/scouts have the ability when there are modern equivalents.

INSERT INTO Unit_FreePromotions
            (UnitType,    PromotionType)
SELECT        Type,        'PROMOTION_RIVAL_TERRITORY'
FROM Units WHERE CombatClass = 'UNITCOMBAT_RECON';

Yep, that looks to do the exact same thing!

 

[adan_eslavo]

But from the beginning instead. Your version must wait for fisrt promtion.

 

[TwoPodRay]

But from the beginning instead. Your version must wait for fisrt promtion.

It is simply a version that could be done easily for those not as experienced with code or where to put it. First promotion comes quick enough, or with barracks, that you’ll have the rival territory promotion by the time you need it. Doesn’t matter to me who uses what, just giving another option.

 

[civplayer33]

I am a bit on the fence with regards to this issue...on the one hand I do agree that it is super annoying when scouting units get stuck and it does happen regularly enough (though I haven't played in a while so the changes from the last 6 months WTR to this issue, which I reference at the bottom of this post, haven't been around the last time I played; I will start a game likely this week, though).
On the other hand I like having firmly closed borders, especially with regards to military units; scouting units may not be able to take cities but they can wreak quite a bit of havoc and preventing them from easily getting deep into my lands is a capability I want to keep! I also like the fact that I can create these "exploration black holes" where my opponents don't know exactly what is at the heart of my empire.

Another point to consider is that the diplomatic world wonder Summer Palace gives the ability for diplo units to cross into territory without an open border treaty, before this ability is given to all diplo units quite a bit later in the game. Making the kind of change being discussed here would essentially nerf that wonder and remove a big reason for getting it (Deity players will laugh at me probably but I like that this wonder has that capability and the circumstances that make it useful).
Furthermore, consider the way this works in reality: you wouldn't let the fully equipped and specialized recon battalions of a non-friendly country just roam around inside your borders, would you? Sure, there can be spies and covert operatives but that is not what the scouting units are. The more covert side of exploration is already covered in VP anyway, since you can use diplomatic units (either with Summer Palace WW in Renaissance or once you get to late Modern Era with Foreign Bureau or by using Great Diplomats) or religious units (Missionaries and Great Prophets) to do some slow and basic exploration of the areas your enemies just don't want you to see at all.
Having said that, I will note that I certainly wouldn't be opposed to including something like Subs Ignore Borders for late game scouting of enemy naval movements, Improved Air Recon for adding a recon/scouting ability to fighter aircraft or even Espionage Mapping for adding a fun little recon ability to spies.

Lastly, some of the negative sides of this issue have already been improved upon somewhat with the changes that enabled scouting units to receive embarkation without coming home as well as the implementation of the mod that disables ocean tile claiming until Compass, which gives embarked scouts a chance to hop between coastal tiles that aren't claimed yet.

 

[tu_79]

as well as the implementation of the mod that disables ocean tile claiming until Compass, which gives embarked scouts a chance to hop between coastal tiles that aren't claimed yet.

Embarked units cannot hop.