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PBEM - Double Team game strategy discussion

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Tyrghen, Nov 6, 2008.

  1. Tyrghen

    Tyrghen Warlord

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    This thread is meant for the players (and lurkers) of the Double Team vanilla game we play in this thread :
    Double Team - Vanilla 1.74

    We decided to play in "cooperation" until 1250AD and discuss our ideas on how to run our empires through those turns.

    Everyone is welcome to comment and give their opinions/ideas as long as they are constructive.


    We'll start with reposting the informations of our starting positions and early game plan.
     
  2. Tyrghen

    Tyrghen Warlord

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    A reminder of the game settings!

    The game options we agreed upon will be :
    • 2x2 human teams
    • 3x2 AI teams
    • Prince level
    • Normal Fractal Map
    • Low sea level
    • Normal Climate
    • Classical start
    • Normal Barbs
    • Non aggression between humans till 1250

    The roster is complete with (in playing order) :
    Tyrghen (team1) - Washington
    Port16 (team1) - Caesar
    Elros (team2) - Catherine
    DNK (team2) - Elizabeth
     
  3. DNK

    DNK Member

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    I'm playing for Elros (Chris) temporarily:
    Spoiler :

    Holy crap, did I say I was envious of Tyrghen's start? I was wrong :eek:

    So, 2 food resources PLUS 4 floodplains. What a waste for a non-philo leader... :( and it's not a very useful production site either. Still, it could make for a nice specialist/cottage city to get our GNP/teching up quickly without having to worry about farming since you can cottage, specialize, and grow at the same time with those floodplains. And we both will get a +1:health: resource once we get a couple boats out the docks, which will help early growth. It will also be a sweet settler factory. I suppose you could also eschew :gold:/:science: and focus on watermills and such instead...

    I moved the scout north before settling just to get a peek, and moved the archer west. I like to scout early on with the archer just to see the surrounding terrain - not much in terms of threats this early in the game. I'll move him to the pig hill then back in two turns. Really, this is not only a nice capital spot, but you have at least three grade A cities you can build around it on that terrain. You can't ask for much more in a start. Hope I'm as lucky!

    Build = boat, no question I think on that one
    Working: one of the tree tiles for now to get production up
    Tech = Ironworking; I considered Horseback Riding, but don't think it will be necessary. By the time we're getting militant, we'll probably have macemen. Certainly, though, knights are a possibility later on, but we can grab that tech for cheap then instead of wasting turns now. Metal Casting was another choice, but I'll be doing IW myself, so we won't lose anything with that one turn if you don't like it.

    Questions: what to do with our first floodplain tile? Farm or cottage? I don't think we should chop for obvious reasons - we need the :health: with 4 FPs in the fat cross.

    Should we keep going on IW?

    Work the forest tile for now then switch to a cottaged/farmed FP tile ASAP? We could get explosive GNP growth off the bat with this setup, although I personally prefer to go the AI route and focus on production/growth in the beginning... but we also have a horse/grasslands tile in the cross, which means we don't need to farm necessarily to get production up a bit.
     
  4. Tyrghen

    Tyrghen Warlord

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    Repost of the other thread... plus a little correction... I wrote Music when I meant Drama for theaters :p

    So, here is what my start looks like :



    It's a pretty strong one with 3 floodplains, good for early growth and commerce. Being a financial civ this will be a big advantage as cottages will become more profitable very soon.
    I also have Pig on hill and copper on a hill for a good production site.
    I have 2 other grassland hill and considering the food surplus at hand I can easily mine them.

    The rest is mostly grassland so I can go for either a hybrid, commerce or production site. This will be a long term choice but I'll wait until I see my second city spot before I take a final decision. The no-brainer here will be to get the pig in play soon to make settlers/wiping/growing faster, getting 3 cottages going and linking the copper.

    I saw the savegame just after my connection was back up and sadly had not much time to put into it nor could I put much thought into it.

    Actually I didn't thought yet of what build path to take. I will probably go for a worker -> archer -> settler. I agree with the others that even with barbarians turned on, we don't take much risks for now.
    And I doubt the AI will put an early rush on us.

    Regarding the research, we won't be able to trade many techs yet, but I think it would be nice if both human teams could share their techs if needed, plus as I stated earlier, I like to beeline for litterature/drama. To me an early land-grab with theaters often offers a long term advantage. And getting the GL very early also gives a big advantage, plus it will trigger two or more GS, which are really nice to build academies. Allowing you to lower your research rate without getting behind the others and get more income (I love some gold for a fast troop upgrade, it can really change the tide in a war).

    I've sent my explorer south because there should be water and considering my team mate is south-west of me, I want to expand south if possible and east.
    I think Port16 should expand north and east so we secure some good land and get each others close enough to help each other. Of course... we first need to see how the land looks like. If the land is very poor, we'll need to get a plan going :)

    So Port16, what's your idea of a gameplan here?

    On a side note, I haven't catch up yet with all I have to do, but I'll try to stay current with everything till I catch up :) Thanks for your patience and understanding!
     
  5. DNK

    DNK Member

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    Spoiler :


    Well, not quite as spectacular, but I couldn't ask too much. Our team has a strong setup here, especially in terms of :health:! :) can always be augmented by monarchy.

    I started by moving my archer and scout around to see what was there. Finding crab, I had to settle in place. I think I'll send Chris' scout northeast now since I'm just ~2.5 cityspans west of his capital.

    Well, not as good as the other starts :cry: but I can deal with it...

    I've got two strong food resources, and some farmable land (2 until civil service, then a bunch). This presents me with a fundamental question of specialization: what is this city going to be? It has some so-so production capabilities with the marble and (about to be chopped) hill.

    I'm chopping: health is hardly an issue here and I want to mine that hill ASAP and get the boat out quickly. After the hill, moving to the marble, then it's road. This one's going to be a production house out of the box, although I'm going to aim for the Oracle posthaste once I have my settler built and work on the GE approach so I can swing the pyramids and run a specialist and wonder-heavy early-game economy.

    This may just be a great GP farm if I can farm three river tiles instead of the one. Oracle -> pyramids -> parthenon -> GL +4-5 specialists ain't bad, and I'll have a bonus from the marble. Really, it's about what I was looking for no real complaints here (although floodplains and 5 food resources would be oh so nice).

    I'm also only counting three bonuses in the fat cross, and experience makes me think at least one or even two more may be lurking. I'm hoping IW reveals iron somewhere in there, preferably on my plains hill.

    Build: boat, obviously again
    Working: forest/grasslands again
    Teching: IW again
     
  6. DNK

    DNK Member

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    I should be slightly more patient, huh? :lol:
     
  7. Tyrghen

    Tyrghen Warlord

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    Nah, it's good to have active people :)


    I've just played my turn. Gotta say I'm a bit disappointed so far by my land to the south. The coast is 2 city plot south. Though the coastline is mostly tundra and poor tiles. Though it looks like it won't be too hard to secure the east border or our team.

    The north so far has a desert patch to the north-east. I wonder if there is a coastline close to me in the north. It could make a very strong start if both Port16 and me can put 4-5 cities in line and secure all the land between us :)

    My main problem in the beginning is always to keep a healthy economy (I hate to see that research slider go down) while expanding fast enough to grab the available land. I don't mind the enemy squeezing small towns in between though. Culture crushing is one of my favorite game :) As long as it's not a creative civ...
     
  8. DNK

    DNK Member

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    I tend towards production and growth in the early game and don't start devoting resources to commerce (usually) until my third city is settled. That's about how the AI does it most of the time, too, from my observations. Early game is all about getting settlers and workers and defense units out the door and then the occasional wonder. Then start to work in the commerce: get the framework of a few good cities and lots of citizens in place first, then build up an economy on top of that. But an integrated approach, especially for a financial civ that can get quick cottage income, could work just as well/better.

    Basically, my team so far looks like it will split between one person going for an early commerce approach and me going to productive/growth/wonder route. We'll see how it pays off, I guess. I always have a hard time balancing these things!
     
  9. Tyrghen

    Tyrghen Warlord

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    I like to start cottages early so I get them at full size very soon, which allows me to support a high research.
    I've tried both approach of max food and max commerce and frankly max food didn't do me much good so far :) My economy tends to choke pretty quickly.

    I've also tried max production and it's not bad if you go for an early warfare and want to clean your starting continent or get some free cities. But then again, as soon as the cities go out of revolt you'll be hit very hard on your economy.
    With time you can catch up a bad economy, but it puts you in a weak position.

    To be honest I'm not sure what I'll do with my first town. My build path is clear but not the specialization. I think I'll go for a mixed town. It had good production and more than enough food to support it. So I'll cottage most of the zone, mine all hills and probably add a waterwill here and there. Combined with bureaucracy it would make a strong capital.

    I need a cottage town too though, I like to have one or two towns devoting to science :) Having the upper hand in techs is always an advantage if you can pay for the upgrades. It allows you to remain lighter on the military while still be strong.
     
  10. DNK

    DNK Member

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    Well, I tend to head towards specialists early on anyway, so quick cottaging isn't my priority regardless.

    Update: I stopped the cottaging worker so that next turn he can start on the pasture and finish the cottage later - Cathy's borders popped and I think that horse tile is going to be much more valuable for now.

    I'm going to put my own worker to start making a road on the marble next turn, then switch to quarrying it the turn after since he finished chopping. That tile and the fish should make for a good combo, and I can move right on to the hill afterward.
     
  11. Tyrghen

    Tyrghen Warlord

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    Yes, your start has a good balance of food/production tiles. I usually try to link those ressources first and get back to commerce tile later. In the beginning getting as many settlers/workers/units out of your capital is essential in my opinion.

    I'm looking where I'll drop my second city but I haven't discovered enough land yet. I hope a hut will pop me a map of the surroundings! It saves a lot of exploring time :)
     
  12. Port16

    Port16 Prince

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    So, here's my start. I've got a little pig up above me, and some spices off to the side. Evidently flood plains are good.

    To be honest with everyone, I haven't really examined my starts all that much, so this should be a good learning experience for me.
     
  13. Tyrghen

    Tyrghen Warlord

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    Your start is rather good for an early rush with many forests you can chop. You have a long term commerce city here. I would keep the forests on the plains though for some production later down the road. And a few watermills will be good aswell.

    The pig should be your priority as soon as you expand borders. You really lack some food bonus to grow and whip.

    Not a bad placement, except the lack of early ressource. A good longterm spot, but challenging short term I'd say.
     
  14. Tyrghen

    Tyrghen Warlord

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    First notice in our round... we are on the same continent/island as Cyrus and Gengis Kahn. They make up for a strong team together. And a violent one... I hope they will be far enough to not push our borders!
    They seem to be on Port16's side to the west. Poor him :)

    And a hut popped me a scout :) Good thing in those strange maps the fractal can generate!
    The hut next to my capital has a big map of the zone north east of Port16 and west of me.


    I have explored the map a bit and here is the result :

    Spoiler :

    I couldn't put the ressources to display because they showed 3 tiles under their actual tiles... probably due to the DLL I need to use for this game.

    My start is in light blue, Port16 is in purple.

    I just finished connecting the pig on a hill and moved to the copper to get the production.

    I've placed two dots (yellow and red) for the two towns which would close my borders the fastest and seal our zone from the east.

    Yellow dot makes me lose one line of tiles between yellow and my capital. But I wanted to connect the horses. Plus it has 3 grassland hills, 1 plain hill and 2 tundra hills. There is a river and cows and a lot of grassland. All in all if I farm every flat tile except a few workshops, it will make a very strong production city. So it will be my first target. And I can put a filler town later to the west or north-west to get the unused tiles.

    Red dot is a bad city placement, I'd prefer it one tile to the south. But the look of the map up there will decide for me.
    It would make a strong commerce city and possibly my second science city.

    In my games I usually try to have 2 science cities and 2 production cities, the rest being hybrid towns or dedicated towns like a GP farm, etc.

    So far I have a good start imho. Three luxury ressources, though they are still out of reach technologically (silk, spice, wine). The two important early war ressources (horses and copper). Three food ressources (pig, cow, corn) and a LOT of grassland and grassland hills. I cannot complain about my start, really.

    My plan right now is to get 2 settlers out of the gate as soon as possible and get my first two towns ready. The production spot will be first and will start cranking units asap.
    I don't have much food ressources though, so I cannot make a worker/settler farm. But I'll try to manage :p

    About the land between Port16 and me, I can say we don't have anyone between us, so if we both expand across the strip of land, we can lock it from our neighbours for a moment. It looks rather poor though. Mostly plains and probably a lot of tundra in the south. I just hope the tundra strip won't be too large... it will be ok for fishing villages but not more.

    I'm eager to see how the other team map looks like :)
     
  15. DNK

    DNK Member

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    I tend to wait until later to determine city placement, since it might change depending on what else is out there, and at least wait until I'm about to finish my first settler to decide on anything.

    1920ad, our team:
    It's looking more and more like we're isolated here. No sign of anyone else yet, and I figure we should have bumped into someone by now, plus I'm finding what looks to be our northeastern coast.

    We got Hinduism this turn in my capital. This is good since I like to produce a couple GMs early on to help the GP farm grow (one extra specialist/turn from two GMs, too) and then tend to turn it into a Wall St city later on, so it makes sense. Thank you, random game engine! Plus, I don't have to walk my GP all the way over to Elros' capital once it pops.

    For now, I'm thinking I would like IW->Metal (need to get to Optics sooner or later and need the forge) -> Lit -> CoL (pick up CoL with Oracle if I get it).
     
  16. Tyrghen

    Tyrghen Warlord

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    I just got Judaism on this turn and our west neighbour Kubilai got Buddhism. So I think we'll have problems with him sooner or later.

    I also have bananas to the north for more health and marble near my capital. Which is a good news all in all.

    Regarding city placement, I try to get an idea of where I want to get early, so I can plan worker movements like building roads and so on. But I change my plans when I see more of the map. Though, I already have a big chunk of map visible and it's clear I better expand north-south for now seeing where the ressources are.
    But, if I don't have a neighbour to the east, I'll probably change the north town placement and go more south-west or go east if the terrain is good there.

    I don't want to expand to the west though, because Mike has two aggressive civs on his side and he'll need to expand more toward me for safety I guess.
    I think the next couple of turns should tell us if there are more civs on our island/continent and reveal most of the remaining land. I doubt given the map size that our continent is very big.
     
  17. Tyrghen

    Tyrghen Warlord

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    Regarding Great People, I'm not yet used to take full advantage of them, it's a facet of the game I've a bit neglected except for the Great Prophets and Great Scientists. I usually keep great engineers to rush build the late wonders as they take so much time to build...

    Well, I think the game is going nicely :)
     
  18. DNK

    DNK Member

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    Alright, well something got accomplished this turn.
    The workers in Moscow finished their cottage. Now comes the question of what to do next? Cottage some more or hike over to the grasslands hill and mine up some more hammers? I was thinking of taking a strong commercial approach to this one, and with all the food lying around I don't think I'll have problems with settlers/workers. I'm thinking another cottage is in order.

    London finished its workboat ahead of schedule. I'm going to start on the Oracle for a couple turns while I wait for it to grow to pop 2, then I'm going to whip out a settler or worker then an archer, then back to Oracle. I suppose starting on the archer would have made more sense now that I think about it, but either way production is getting put towards something.

    After Oracle I'm heading for a forge and then the pyramids with plenty of chopping. I'm saving all the forests for that build. I'm happy with either GPs, GMs, or GEs in this city, but once I get a few of them I'm heading for GSs.
     
  19. Tyrghen

    Tyrghen Warlord

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    Ah well, I finally finished my copper mine. So now I have two heavy production ressources for settlers/workers.

    The worker will be done in 4 turns, meanwhile I'll start cottaging the floodplains for some more cash. So far I worked toward heavy growth/production, now I need to go the commerce path.

    A big bad news... we have Egypt on our east... 2 city radius away. So I'll need to close our border there as soon as possible. Yay... we're in a bad sandwich here and up for a tough game :)

    The land to my east is full of jungle, promising in the long term but very slow to grow in the short term, this will make it even more difficult...

    Tech wise I'm not totally sure which way to go, but as I have copper at hand, I'm rather safe from attacks for some time. Though we'll need a lot of research to out-tech our neighbours and attack one of them.
    So I think I'll still beeline to the great library and save my chopping/whipping for that. Unless our neighbours come to tickle us...

    Regarding our team mates plan, it sounds like a strong plan. I like the oracle slingshots too, but I rarely do it. Pyramids are nice, but I rarely use representation, police state is a good thing to have even in early warfares though.
     
  20. Port16

    Port16 Prince

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    Man, my population must be pretty lazy. I haven't built anything yet, and my scout and an archer are just trudging around.
     

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