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PBEM - Double Team game strategy discussion

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Tyrghen, Nov 6, 2008.

  1. DNK

    DNK Member

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    Well, get on those lazy punks! Cut them down to size and whip them into shape!

    We won't need fascism since we have 0 adversaries here. I think you guys might end up with all of them. Have fun, see you in the Renaissance :p

    We've got 0 luck on popping huts: all small gold and promotions :(

    I'll post a few screen shots next turn now that we're at pop 2 for both cities. This will be a fun little experiment: one city going for growth and commerce, the other GP and wonders. And no units to worry about building! Although those barbs might get nasty eventually...
     
  2. Tyrghen

    Tyrghen Warlord

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    Ah well, things are really slow in those beginning turns and yes... very unlucky with huts. I had an explorer pop, 2 map pops and experience pop so far. The map ones are not bad, but I'd have prefered some gold for deficit research :)

    The ressources now show properly on the right tiles so I've made a screenshot of my map so far. Here it is :

    Spoiler :


    I've highlighted in Yellow the zone of the Egyptian capital. They make a nice team with Hyuana... I think we're in some trouble here :)

    So, on the map I also indicated possible city spots. There is a red one pushing toward the egyptians. I think it's a nice front spot because it's on a hill and it is surrounded by desert, so there is a low chance that it will be crushed culturally by the egyptians.
    And it's still at a good distance from the capital.

    But my preference remain for the two red dots north and south of my capital as it would make a nice front to face the egyptian plus the south town would be a very good production site and the north one a good commerce/science town. With my capital being a top hybrid production/commerce town.

    I think I'll go the hybrid way, because it will give me the best advantages with bureaucracy as soon as I get to it. For now our team is very very low on research, but in 15 turns or so I'll have 2-3 cottages and enough population to raise our research.

    Production wise I'll go for some lances for both Port and me as soon as possible. I really don't want to see chariots, immortals or keshiks on our borders :)
    But my top priority will be to land a settler asap. So I'll make either an archer or lance (I'll have the copper connected in 2 turns and the worker finishing in 4) then I'll head up to the settler when I hit size 3. If needed I'll put some hammers into a barrack. I like early barracks cause those promotions can make a real difference in early wars.
    I'll need stonehenge too probably, with Hatchepsout as a creative neighbour...

    Ah well, those turns are too slow :p
    I'm eager to have 2-3 towns up and kicking :)
     
  3. Port16

    Port16 Prince

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    Nice Spots! I'm still trying to find my neighbors cities, but I've seen some nice spots too.
     
  4. DNK

    DNK Member

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    Well, not much to really report since I've updated regularly. Switched both cities to produce settlers now. I haven't seen any barb warriors yet so I'm going to risk it a bit and send them with my current archers - another defensive unit will be the next build, so my capitals will be unprotected for a few turns. Not sure, I might build the defensive units first after all. I don't like excessive gambles.

    I circled the tiles I'm currently working. Since we're both financial and get to work coastal tiles with our bonuses, we get a rather nice commerce boost from that.

    Still not sure about city placement.

    And I believe I killed a wolf last turn. I love how I get the French messages now :)

    Edit: looks like we've got lots of good terrain and food resources, no tundra, minimal jungle, and most of the desert gets floodplains. Can't ask for much more, really. I think we're going to have to concentrate on GNP and courthouses since this is going to grow fast.
     
  5. Tyrghen

    Tyrghen Warlord

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    Ah well, yeah, I don't even notice the language changes :) For me it's pretty much the same in both :p
    I don't even remember selecting the language btw, I think Civ4 selects from the system default. Usually I select english for everything cause it makes sharing help and infos easier.

    Anyway, you have two nice city spots and your island looks gorgeous! We'll have a way harder time on our crowded continent with Port16...

    So, how do you see the future Port16?
    I believe we need to work our economy up and get in line with some strong units asap. I fear to see some keshiks on our border sooner rather than later.
    I'll revolt to organised religion at some point and send you a missionary, so you can spread some religion for happiness.

    What do you think of the plan of trying to enclose the land between us as a priority? :)

    My next builds will probably be two pairs of Unit/Settlers and maybe Unit/Worker mixed in. I want t0wNz :goodjob:
     
  6. Port16

    Port16 Prince

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    Yea, I agree with enclosing the land. I know that barbs are a little ways off, but I'm planning on chopping out a archer once I get my worker finished (should be the next turn), then a settler. I'll use the spare archer for the settler and resulting city.
     
  7. DNK

    DNK Member

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    Iron Working finished, and as I suspected there is iron in Liz's fat cross! Excellent... This will help greatly with my builds, and since it's on grassland, at no food cost to me!

    I have moved on to Metal Working since I will need a forge to help pop GEs - 23 turns at the current rate for our team. It is also a necessary step towards Optics, which I tend to prioritize on isolated starts.

    Both cities are making settlers, and have about 10 turns to go. In Moscow, I'm going to be chopping a forest next turn, now that the second cottage is done (perhaps I should have started earlier). I'm not sure, now that I've finished my priority task - hooking up the marble - if I should chop a forest or mine the iron in London. I'm thinking a single chop, then mining would be best, so I can start growing again.
     
  8. Tyrghen

    Tyrghen Warlord

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    Ah well, with the lack of commerce on my start science is rather slow, but I'm up for some good production soon. I'll need to wait size 3 before I have a decent commerce.

    I continued exploring the land to the east and it seems that Hatchepsout is blocked on the south and east by the coast. But she has some room to the north. So I hope she'll be expanding north rather than toward me.
    I'll try to setup my third town close to her to push her north.
    On the bright side, it seems her team mate is not on the continent. So she might be isolated :)

    I finished my second worker and I'm starting the road which will connect my second town. Then I'll chop a tree to boost the settler.

    I'll try to pop two towns as quickly as possible while remaining at least at size 3 in my main town (for commerce and production).

    Science is VERY slow since nor Port16 nor me got a cottage or commerce ressource up. It's rare for me, especially when playing a financial civ, but I wanted to build production up first to get a good start (though slow technologically) on this crowded land.

    I don't know if focusing on commerce would have been better. But I feel more secure the way it is now :)

    My plan so far as I said is :
    - Get two towns as fast as possible to the south and east of my capital.
    - Get 2 cottages going at my capital on the floodplains.
    - Continue my slow beeline to the library and prepare my capital to receive it. So heading the commerce town there. I have some good production aswell so it should be able to build all the necesseray improvements and wonders (I'm thinking of Oxford, Universities, Monasteries, etc.).
    - Get my south production town ready asap and start building troops there to either fortify my border with hatchy or rush her if the other team member is not on the continent.

    ---------

    At DNK, I think you took a good approach, that's nice you popped iron! I hope Port16 will be as lucky. Might be a while before I can share any ressources with him.

    I don't think we'll be able to catch up on science before 15-20 turns. You took a big headstart there :p
     
  9. Port16

    Port16 Prince

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    You know, I haven't found a single cottage yet. Things are really slow on my end, I chopped out a worker, and now I'm chopping out a settler. I do have some tasty pork though. :)
     
  10. Tyrghen

    Tyrghen Warlord

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    Ok , couldn't post earlier due to a crapload of work and related fun things...

    The past turns brought some big news...
    We are NOT alone... well, we knew it, but damn... We have ALL the AI civs on our land. I finally discovered Huayna north east of Hatchepsout. So that team is together plus it is close to each other. The only good news there is that they have mostly jungle to expand in which should slow them down a little.

    The next turn I meet... our Indian friend. Now that is another interesting news... looking at what we see from the map I'd say our continent is a long piece of land with all 4 teams lined up.
    The only team which is not on our continent is thus the other player team. Bah!

    One thing to note.. Asoka and Isabella in the same team... and far away from us, which means they'll be techleaders very soon.
    Cyrus/Kublai is bad news for Port16 because I expect them to get very aggressive very early...
    Hatty/Huayna will be my poor neighbours, I don't see much choice but to attack Hatty very soon to weaken that team.

    Here is a the pic of all our friends :


    You'll notice that we're the good lasts :) But I'm rather used to it. Fast starts aren't really my strongest point. I'm more a long term runner, slow but steady :p

    So, I've discovered a big part of our land and here is what it looks like :

    Spoiler :


    I've made a dot map of my planned towns.
    There are 2 goals here :
    1) Protect the land between Port16 and me
    2) Push Hatchepsout toward Huayna.

    So, my capital is in light blue. Now I have three ways to go and one to choose :
    1) I close the border as fast as possible by founding Red and Light green dot. But then I have a high chance to miss on Blue and Dark green dot.
    2) I push toward Hatchepsout and go Red - Blue - Dark Green - Light Green. But it's a risky way to go. Why go red first? Well, it will be a good production site with cows, horses and many hills plus a lot of grassland. So a good production to support an early war with Hatchepsout.
    3) Same as above except I go Blue - Dark Green - Red - Light Green. Which is safer since I have a bigger chance to found both Blue and Dark Green. My main problem here is Blue is not as good as a production site and it lacks any food bonus or river so it will be a VERY slow growth until I hit Administration.

    Since there is not a lot of land between Port16 and me, I really want to push toward the AI. Also I don't want to expand north too much to avoid too much corruption so I need to expand around my capital. All the dots on the map are just that, right around my capital so best for corruption.

    I'm really not sure which way to go or which way will be best. I like red dot for being a good production site and I expect a war sooner rather later considered the crowded start.
    I think I'll need 10 turns to land 2 towns if taking some risks. It's pretty sure that the AI will land a town in between. Knowing my luck it will be in a spot I want :)

    Need to think more of it in the coming 4 turns.

    I have copper so I can try and rush Hatchepsout to clean the land around me. Again Red dot would be good for that and Green dot too. Plus I'll be able to make horse archers which is nice.
    Arghhh so many choices...

    :help: :help: :help:
     
  11. Tyrghen

    Tyrghen Warlord

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    What do we do regarding our missing mate for the game?
    Should we recruit someone to fill the gap?
     
  12. Cabledawg

    Cabledawg King

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    You might want to consider moving red dot 2 tiles West. It picks up the riverside corn, .....more food will mean more production. Youll lose the horses, but gain soooo much more. Youll eventually get the horses, but in the meantime, itll be a production powerhouse not just shorterm, but longterm as well. Your red dot placement now will be too slow in growing.
     
  13. Tyrghen

    Tyrghen Warlord

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    Hello mate, thanks for the feedback!

    I've considered that placement too, but I wanted to place another town to grab the corn. That part of the map is very poor in food ressources and I was thinking of squizing as many towns as possible in our reduced space.

    My reasoning was that more towns mean more power even if they are growing slower. What do you think of that?

    I studied the dot map further to see where I would put my future towns granted I can control that part of the land. And if I grab the corn with red dot, it means a very slow city down there next to it.

    Though, maybe the deer will be enough.

    Hmm, I could move the red dot one tile NW so I have better land to expand on...

    Braaaaahhhh, need to think of it more then... if you could elaborate on a long term strategy here I'm interested :)


    Since I've written this post this morning I've been thinking of the order in which to build the cities.
    Considering the Blue dot is the closest to hatchepsout and the slowest to grow, I was thinking of going with it first. There is a very small chance that hatchepsout will move as far as the Dark Green dot and an even smaller chance it will move to Red dot, especially if Blue dot is founded.

    I think that the first egyptian town will grab the cow, the copper and the bananas north of Blue dot.
    Actually founding under the banana would make a very powerful town. And it will put a lot of pressure on hatchepsout.
    Well, I guess I cannot beat hatchepsout to that spot anyway but I'll be able to move the dark green dot more to the NW, so all in all placing blue dot first would be the best long term deal rather than having an enemy town on a hill so close to me.

    What do you think of it? Its the kind of choice I usually gamble in my solo games and see how it turns out. But since we decided to share our views and opinions for the benefit of learning more :) Please give me feedback!
     
  14. Port16

    Port16 Prince

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    I'm planning on founding my next city somewhere above me, which will should cut off the landmass pretty quick. Then we have a little breathing room between us.

    I guess I better make sure I have a good defense, and btw, I seem to be killing a bunch of lions. Wish I could get some food resources off of them :)
     
  15. Tyrghen

    Tyrghen Warlord

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    Hello,

    Well, I think you'll need two towns to close the land. But in my opinion your first town if you can land it before Kubilai would be the one getting corn, cow, gold north of your capital.
    And the second one should be north west of your capital and south of the first town. This way you make the best use of your border tiles and close the land to kubilai.

    Plus your border town would be one with a good growth and good ressources due to the hills. I would put a lot of culture buildings in it though since Kubilai is a creative leader :)

    This way your first two towns wouldn't use the land in between us and would make you a strong border.

    Oh and we want to convert as many civs to judaism before they get themselves a religion :) I think part of my production should go into 4-5 missionnaries.

    Don't know if my explanations make sense since I'm somewhat tired and am still working :p
     
  16. DNK

    DNK Member

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    My thoughts:
    I tend to always grow cities at a rate of +3 food. A single farm can do this, but certainly I aim to have at least one food resource in any given fat cross. Quality cities are my primary goal, not quantity, especially not in the early game. You should fill up by finding the best city spots you can, use that to your early game advantage (the AI isn't the best at picking spots), and then when you need to expand into the AI.

    So I would suggest rethinking the red city at least, since it looks to be on poor land. You don't need the horse there anyway.
     
  17. Tyrghen

    Tyrghen Warlord

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    Thing is, I'm now rather convinced I should not found that town first, so it gives me a few more turns to decide :)
    But indeed, I'm tempted to move it NW one tile so I grab the corn, more hills and more grassland. And I'm still close to a river so farms will be very good there.
    I'll make the blue one first, it is slower growing so it is better to start it soon... I'll need to build a farm on the only grassland tile with a river. The two next tiled will be grassland hills until I get administration.

    Should be enough to build some culture buildings.
     
  18. Cabledawg

    Cabledawg King

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    I would rather have 1 good city than 2 mediocre ones. A city 2w of red dot will have good production and good rapid growth. You dont need the corn for a city near the deer.

    The city near the deer is good for picking up the furs. Not to mention youll end up with a forward city with excellent production that can pump out troops....and by putting it on the river, you wont waste turns building an early aquaduct.
     
  19. Tyrghen

    Tyrghen Warlord

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    Hmm, well, I wouldn't have classified those towns as mediocre. They wouldn't have had a fast growth, but that's the case of many towns. Especially when you land in poor land.
    But they would be strong producers with enough food to support the mines.

    But yes, I can surely see the advantage of stronger towns. But in the long runs more land occupied and more towns usually means more power. At least that's the conclusion I have.

    I'll move the red dot either north west one tile, to grab the corn and more good tiles or two tiles west, need to see what will give the best advantages. If you have pro/cons for both spots, I'm interested too :)

    My first town will be the blue dot. To force hatchepsout to go either north or south. The red dot spot is too far from her capital, she won't plan there before a long time.
    The dark green dot is closer to her and is a good spot I think if she starts expanding north that there will be a run for this spot.

    Time will tell, but I've surely decided to follow your advice on that one!
     
  20. DNK

    DNK Member

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    Time for some dotmapping of my own ;)

    Belated news:
    • lost a scout to a lion
    • starting work on Oracle in London after finishing settler - 19 turns to go and only pop 2 right now
    • finished iron working and found iron in London's BFC as expected! (and in "Oxford") - that tech really paid off (when doesn't it?)
    • starting on metal casting now


    I'm thinking I should make another archer quick in London, before going through with the Oracle. Just in case, I don't want to get caught with my pants down.

    Popped my first settler in London, and he's already on his way to his new home of Oxford. That will be the city next to Moscow. I know I'm losing some space and wheat in that spot by London, but I don't think it's going to play out very well. Too bad London's going to be my GP farm since there was a good opportunity just to the north with 4 food resources. It's better this way, since I can start working on :commerce: early on now also, although I'll be using Oxford as a settler/worker/archer production house for a while with that pig and iron right there.

    We're going to be getting a fourth player finally, so I'll let him look at the eastern half (I don't want to anyway - it's a bit of a puzzle). We're going to have to wait until I finish exploring north, though, since we're not going to be able to cleanly slice this one in half.
     

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