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Peaceful Deity Science Victory in 150T PERICLES & 157T Lucky ROME (VIDEO) - Strategy and Discussion

Discussion in 'Civ6 - Strategy & Tips' started by civtrader6, Jan 19, 2018.

  1. Boyan_Sun

    Boyan_Sun Chieftain

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    I guess it's more game experience than calculation? I only know that in general the second and third cities were founded nearly at the same time (1st from gold and 2nd built), and theaters are easier to build in earlier cities for they are at full price.
    In fact, globalization style is very different from 3-theater style. I don't have many experience, but I've seen some videos. If you do not want an early globalization, maybe 3 is a balance number, for getting writers stably, reaching Democracy early, and not hurting your expand/economy/science too much at the same time? After all, you always need campus for every city for SV.
     
  2. mr_siika

    mr_siika Chieftain

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    Awesome videos, thanks a lot for sharing your experience with us! I noticed many people play on standard speed - in multiplayer I like to play on "Quick"; Would you say the strategies you use are applicable on quick speed as well? Or does it mess up the timing / production discounts / chops?
     
  3. gadgetfreaky

    gadgetfreaky Chieftain

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    Awesome videos. I get the reasoning behind chopping the walls when you have the bonus to defensive buildings but my question is since walls really are not necessary don't you waste all the portion spent on walls since they give you nada? what am I missing here?
     
  4. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Chieftain

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    After some watch I find this one not really "3 theaters", since you actually built more than 5 early theaters.

    Just like the nobel-prized Chinese medicine, which is actually not the original Chinese medicine that makes sense, but the modern scientific approach that figures out some other things close to the original Chinese medicine, and made great sense. The Chinese "3 theaters" is like the original medicine, while your approach is actually what makes sense.

    Let's recall why you do not get a discount on your 3rd campus. At that time you have built 4 theaters, unlocked theatre and campus, which indicates that your "average" district number is 2, and since you already have 2 campus bases, you cannot get one more discounted campus.

    You'll get that discount if you finish either one campus or one more theatre square, before you research Currency or Bronze Working or Games/Recreation or Astrology.

    In fact I think the Holy-Site style seems more reasonable in normal maps, normal Civs( Civs other than Rome are painful to get early Culture district civic) without that much city-states. A religion makes more sense, and Holy Sites give you discounted districts as well.
     
  5. Boyan_Sun

    Boyan_Sun Chieftain

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    It is a very famous trick ( or bug, or feature, whatever ), we call it "overflow hammer" in China. The history of this trick is very long ( more than ten years, almost never been fixed, from Civ4 to Civ5, then Civ6 ).
    Suppose you have spent 30 prod on walls, thus you actually get 30 * 2.5 = 75 prod because of the monarchy (+50%) and the limes policy (+100%). Then you get 80 prod from chopping, you actually get 80 * 2.5 = 200 prod from the same combo. 5 prod to complete walls (price is 80 prod), so you get 200 - 5 = 195 overflow prod into the next production. During all of this, you pay totally 30 + 80 = 110 prod, but gain 195 prod.
    Therefore, if the chop/harvest yield remains, and the overflow mechanism also remains in R&F, the governor Magnas may lead to a very unbalanced result.
     
    NegativeZero and gadgetfreaky like this.
  6. Dactyl

    Dactyl Chieftain

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    Is the three theaters district strategy for a science victory explained anywhere in writing? I don't want to spend two or three hours sitting through play-thru videos.
     
    anandus likes this.
  7. marius_kaparius

    marius_kaparius Chieftain

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    I know you say you are not a Youtuber but I really enjoyed your videos. Some of your reactions were funny and the level of play is way beyond other channels I've seen. Keep up the good work!
     
  8. antimony

    antimony Chieftain

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  9. Jarekexe

    Jarekexe Chieftain

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    How do you deal with Amenities in this build?
    Since I'm selling all luxuries, I have 0 "zero" amenities in my cities (except for capital) and they go Displeased.
     
  10. Boyan_Sun

    Boyan_Sun Chieftain

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    In fact, I'm not a experienced player, so actually the Rogue-star‘s reply above may be a more formal explanation? The author's videos is actually not called 3-theater style in China, we generally called it "globalization style". But they are very similar in their thinking, all based on culture focusing.

    This is actually not the interpretation of the 3-theater style, this is the translation of the district discount mechanism, but 3-theaters just started off like this. The 3-theater is a too...o long article. I'm really sorry for the difficulty in translating.:undecide:


    Actually, I don't know how to explain the 3-theaters, it is, a little different from your imaging, not used to playing the fastest science victory. It is a thinking that can make all the civilization on an average map achieve peaceful SV in deity below T200(often 170~190, and I don't think it is that easy to achieve peaceful SV in deity below T200 with a common civilization on a common map). You don't need a good starting position, you don't need a lot of space, and you won't be affected by the aggressive expansion of AIs. However, it wins 10~15 turn slower than globalization style, because globalization style is really need too many good conditions.
    In peaceful SV of vanilla version, if you only focus on science from the beginning, you will be even slower. "More haste, less speed". So far, we cannot find any game reports or videos that only focusing on science to achieve T200 peaceful SV. Though I guess the bottleneck will become science mostly after R&F expansion, it doesn't necessarily mean that focusing on culture will fail. At least the civic tree was strengthened by the governor titles:king:.
     
  11. anandus

    anandus Errorist

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    I've watched 3 episodes, but I still don't understand what the 3 TD-style is and what the Globalization-style is :confused:

    How is this culture-buildup translated into science?
     
  12. beest

    beest Chieftain

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    Crazy stuff this. I just have the idea that this game was "not meant" to be finished turn 157 on deity. I am not even going try to copy this, but I noticed lots of tricks that I might use at some point.

    As for the globalization comment, I assume that refers to the “+10% Science Science per city-state you are the Suzerain of” policy.
     
  13. Boyan_Sun

    Boyan_Sun Chieftain

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    The more culture you get, the more policy slots/powerful policy cards, envoy/influence, free city tiles, the harvest/chopping yield... you will gain. Almost all of them are immediately bonus, which are very different from the tech tree bonus.
    Once you reach globalization, there are 2 extremely powerful cards: International Space Agency +10% over all science from every CS you are suzerain of (Your envoys are usually the most if you stick on culture), Ecommerce +5 prod +10 gold for every foreign trade routes.
    As for the 3-theaters, they still need to spam ghost cities and campus districts after the early theaters. Globalization seems to be out of reach for non-Kumasi or non-Greeks in an average map.
     
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  14. anandus

    anandus Errorist

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    Thank you! So it's more the -instant- benefits in general of the civics tree than some 'magic trick' (which I assumed).

    Interesting (especially as, for me, the civics tree is more of an afterthought and I'm very focused on the tech tree)
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
  15. Jarekexe

    Jarekexe Chieftain

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    I really like the video and like anandus mentioned, I picked up a lot of tips and tricks (and overflow production exploit... which actually is not so nice, but oh well)

    However, when I tried to copy the strategy, I banged my head on the desk like million times.
    I started about 30 maps going to turn ~30 (when u started first TDs).
    On average I met 2 city states, rarely even 1 as a first civ. The best scenario was when I met 4 of them, but only 1 as a first Civ.
    On most maps I immediately met ~2 AI's which means I got at most 5-6 cities before I ran out of space.
    On all maps barbarians swarmed me since turn ~5 slowing me down greatly (comapring to your speed) while you didn't have to bother with making units since turn ~35 or even later.
    On turn 13 u have 15 production in Rome. On average, my Rome had ~6-8 production at that time.

    Idk... it seems to me like you got EXTREMELY lucky with the map and it's so frustrating that I can't get even close to what you got :(
    I'd love to see the video when u start 5 games and see if you get at least half as lucky as this one.
     
  16. Hactar

    Hactar Chieftain

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    LOL same here. I’ve been trying Deity starts for a while now and it never seems like the stars align properly. I have one game going now that seems winnable but sure nowhere near a record time.

    I watched him do it but I still have no idea how he does it :)
     
  17. civtrader6

    civtrader6 Chieftain

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    Hi guys, I totally feel your pain.
    I've done another game with Pericles that was much much less lucky than the Rome game -> Got just one goody hut (that gave me a scout), AI was surrounding me, there was a threat of war, and met only 2 city states early.
    I've adapted the opening moves to make the most out of this situation. Including excursion into becoming a suzerain of Mohenjo Daro in the ancient era - which initially slowed me down but allowed me to put 3 cities without housing and without having to worry about buying granaries early.

    I now believe that Greece is the only Civ that can consistently pull a T150-T160 science victory that does not need a lucky start. I also believe now that the rome game would realistically finish somewhere in the T160-T170 range if there were no great immediate bonuses. Other civs probably T170+.

    So have a look a that video - and if you're aiming at a fast victory - perhaps try with Pericles.
    In any case, I believe there is a great deal that can be learned from these videos - both from my moves and from my mistakes. Including - how to push for quick settlers - how to try to befriend the AI, insist on trades, progress with districts etc, chase envoys, go through the civic tree etc.
    Most of these will stay relevant even with R&F

    On a positive note -> I'm really looking forward to the R&F new civ placement algorithm. Based on the preview games - it seems every civ starts with a proper amount of space to expand and the placement of city states is balanced - so that will make things significantly easier.
    With all the changes (governors (one that gives +100% on chops; then 50% production to settlers combined with the settlers card and government buildings - early expansion will be even more exciting and faster). Other changes, as @Boyan_Sun noted will likely lower the focus on getting gold to purhcase great scientists - will all result in more enjoyable games.

    Have a look at the Pericles video and enjoy.
     
    anandus and Hactar like this.
  18. Skiekai

    Skiekai Chieftain

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    @civtrader6 If you could attach the maps of the beginning of your games, it could be very very helpful for everyone who tries to replicate your results.

    I had the same feeling of Jarekexe (extreme lucky map) after watching your T128 Aztec videos because I wasn't able to recreate a similar good early game with different maps.
    Then I tried your exact map, and after 4-5 attempts, I discovered the map was not the problem :). I wasn't able to replicate your starting results, using your map and after watching 3 times your video!!
    And I realized lucky is only a little part of your videos. I tried to understand and replicate all yours beginning moves, and I discovered how many little mistakes I was doing, and how some unnoticed details in the first turns could make a really big difference, and change completely the outcome of the game.

    So I believe that if in the future you could attach the starting position of your videos, it could really help the viewers to appreciate how much skill is required to do what you do so naturally.
     
    i_imperator likes this.
  19. Stevanovic

    Stevanovic Chieftain

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    @civtrader6 Thanks very much for posting these videos.

    I've never been able to watch anyone playing video games on YouTube, but yours are the single exception because they are so informative. I now have just two subscriptions on YouTube, Stephen Colbert and Civtrader6 :)
     
  20. Cobretti

    Cobretti Chieftain

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    What is your thinking process when looking for places to settle cities? I imagine the obvious features are water, luxuries to sell, chops, hammers and food, etc, but I'd like to know if there is something more that you'll consider
     

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