Peaceful Play in ToT

[bengalryan9]

Let me begin this discussion by saying I play in a very specific way, so a lot of my concerns probably aren't going to apply to everyone and I get that. I acknowledge that this is a somewhat specialized case in terms of approach to the game.
-I play almost entirely peacefully. I never declare wars, and while I will defend myself if declared upon I almost never go on the offensive (sometimes I will if an opponent refuses to take a peace deal and I need to scare them into it).
-I play on Deity difficulty level.
So yeah, maybe a lot of what I'm about to say can be handwaved away by saying "well just change those two things", and I think that's fair (and I probably will drop the difficulty level for the first time in years of playing Civ games for my next game), but at the same time... I just don't particularly enjoy war in these games, I never have, and I don't think a player should be forced down one path just to win the game. More options for play are always a good thing, and I think playing peacefully should be just as viable as conquering all your neighbors.

Anyways, on to my point... is it even possible to win a science or cultural victory on Deity without going to war? I'm not going to pretend to be the best player in the world or anything, but I'm no slouch either - I've been consistently winning in these same circumstances across Civ 5, 6, and 7 with no real issue, so I feel like I know what I'm doing for the most part, and yet... I just can't do it anymore. I've attempted both 3-4 times post-ToT and I've lost every single time. The first couple of games I shrugged it off as just learning the new systems in ToT - I went in to those expecting to struggle. The 2nd or 3rd times I chalked up to still not quite having an optimal strategy or set of circumstances... it happens. But the last time I went for it in particular I played one of the strongest games I've played and I still couldn't pull it off.

Here's my latest example: I decided to go for science victory (because in ToT on higher difficulties you almost have to choose right at the start or you'll have no chance), so I decided to stop messing around and pick one of the stronger leaders in this area - I went with science Himiko, who gets huge boosts to science when played peacefully (extra science from being friendly, +25% science through an endeavor with an ally). She was like playing on an easier difficulty level before ToT, but now the gloves were off. I started as Tonga meaning I could explore the whole map, essentially befriend every single city state out there, become friends with every leader ASAP, and find all the places I wanted to settle in the Exploration ahead of time. I was rolling in science, and yet, by the end of the age, despite clearing the whole tree, having great science adjacencies, and finishing every project... I was still trailing, by quite a bit. I had no shot at the inspiration wonders, I was beat to Future Tech (meaning I got a smaller bonus to inspiration), and so I was already in a hole. Exploration age I was settling all the best distant lands spots on the map (due to finding the spots early as Tonga) and was still flying through the tech tree, but it was more of the same at the end of that age with me being unable to really gain any ground. I pushed through the tech tree in modern age about as fast as I ever have... but it still wasn't enough, and I was beat to science victory, probably by about 12-15 turns. I'm not really sure what else I could've done, TBH - I was running Friend of Wei almost the entire game, I was friendly with everyone the entire game, I was running espionage missions almost the entire game... and in the end I still lost. It's kind of crazy!

Cultural seems just as difficult. The AI will fly through the trees so quickly they'll almost always build more wonders than you, they'll probably match you in terms of great works, they'll get a huge tourism boost from that stupid walls triumph (you can try to match them but good luck), they always seem to get the Manifesto triumph that gives them even more tourism. At least with cultural victories I feel like there is at least one avenue for a human player to gain ground (namely city state unique improvements, but that takes a lot of work), and I have managed to get myself to the top of the scores in this category before... but I've never managed to get enough of a lead to claim a victory before a computer opponent launches to space. I do feel like this one is more achievable than science, though.

Economic victory seems very possible, and ironically despite playing peacefully I am always at the top of the military victory scoreboard via aggressive settling (though without conquering you'll never have enough points to win).

I'm curious to hear about others' thoughts and experiences. Am I crazy or is this truly as challenging as I seem to be finding it?

 

[bengalryan9]

As for a potential fix... obviously adjusting numbers/yields/bonuses for AI players is an option, but outside of that I'd really just like to see added options/bonuses/paths made available to players who don't go to war for long periods of time. Maybe that comes in the form of quests or events that give boosts, maybe that comes in the form of new triumphs (ie, "avoided declaring war this age") that boost future ages, or maybe that comes in the form of specialized infrastructure that can only be built by or that only grants bonuses to players not at war. I feel there are a lot of options to boost this type of play without just nerfing the AI.

I hesitate to punish players who go to war (ie, "players at war get penalties to tourism") because I don't want to ruin anybody else's fun.

 

[Stepbr]

I play similarly to you -- I play deity; I've consistently won on previous iterations (in my case II and VI); and I don't like war (though unlike you, I will sometimes; Charlemagne/Mongolia in Antiquity is too good to miss).

And I've struggled with non-military victories post ToT too.

However, have you tried Catherine, Han/Qing/whatever? Spamming Great Walls (which generate tourism) worked recently for me. I didn't get many Antiquity wonders but was able to hit 6 in Exploration and Modern -- which helped considerably.

I think, of the three non-military victories, culture is easier than the other two. There are often reports of people winning cultural "by accident" when going for something else.

Good luck!

 

[kotpeter]

Could you share your turn 1 save file please? I'm curious to try playing through the same game and see if I run into the same issues.

I play peacefully almost all the time and I've only lost one or two games since the ToT update.

 

[bengalryan9]

Could you share your turn 1 save file please? I'm curious to try playing through the same game and see if I run into the same issues.

I play peacefully almost all the time and I've only lost one or two games since the ToT update.

I play on PS5 so don't think I can.

Any general tips, though?

 

[kotpeter]

For peaceful playthroughs specifically:

1) Early libraries and markets are great, but so are monuments. You need to rush one or the other and plan for a few high adjacency spots for them. Once you grab all your warehouse tiles, start placing specialists; each specialist should give ideally +3/+3 at least.

2) At the beginning I always go for the policy card which increases movement and sight range of scouts. It helps saving them from trouble and securing more goodies. Proper scouting almost guarantees you a free settler from the triumph.

3) Back to specialists, prioritize quarters that will have aged (NOT ageless) buildings. Specialists in such buildings cost less maintenance, so you'll get to decide when to overbuild and suffer the full maintenance cost.

4) Manage relationships with AI. Send your closest neighbors endeavors early on, then merchants, and try to satisfy their agendas. It'll be easier now with new notifications.

5) Level up your first commander by razing a nearby IP. If it's a militaristic one, you'll get production in the capital, and it can be used to rush a world wonder (worthy wonders are Great Stele and any attribute point wonder).

6) Ideally you want a leader with a scientific or cultural focus (or both, like Ada), and you want a civ with peaceful gameplay bonuses. I've started a new Confucius + Khmer playthrough today and am having a blast. Khmer has 2 strong traditions for specialists (one for floodplains adjacencies and one for maintenance) and with Confucius' bonus my specialists on a specific tile provide +5 science and +4 gold each, in Antiquity, and I already have 2 of them because of Angkor Wat.

 

[bengalryan9]

For peaceful playthroughs specifically:

1) Early libraries and markets are great, but so are monuments. You need to rush one or the other and plan for a few high adjacency spots for them. Once you grab all your warehouse tiles, start placing specialists; each specialist should give ideally +3/+3 at least.

2) At the beginning I always go for the policy card which increases movement and sight range of scouts. It helps saving them from trouble and securing more goodies. Proper scouting almost guarantees you a free settler from the triumph.

3) Back to specialists, prioritize quarters that will have aged (NOT ageless) buildings. Specialists in such buildings cost less maintenance, so you'll get to decide when to overbuild and suffer the full maintenance cost.

4) Manage relationships with AI. Send your closest neighbors endeavors early on, then merchants, and try to satisfy their agendas. It'll be easier now with new notifications.

5) Level up your first commander by razing a nearby IP. If it's a militaristic one, you'll get production in the capital, and it can be used to rush a world wonder (worthy wonders are Great Stele and any attribute point wonder).

6) Ideally you want a leader with a scientific or cultural focus (or both, like Ada), and you want a civ with peaceful gameplay bonuses. I've started a new Confucius + Khmer playthrough today and am having a blast. Khmer has 2 strong traditions for specialists (one for floodplains adjacencies and one for maintenance) and with Confucius' bonus my specialists on a specific tile provide +5 science and +4 gold each, in Antiquity, and I already have 2 of them because of Angkor Wat.

Thanks! I can say that I absolutely nailed 2, 4, and 6 on your list - starting as Tonga meant I had the whole map scouted by the end of the Ancient Era and claimed a ridiculous amount of goody huts as well as the free settler from the triumph. I was friendly or allied with everybody during the course of the game - for one, I met many of them well before they could even reach me let along get upset with me, and for two I was incentivized to do so because I was playing science Himiko and she gets a bonus for doing so... she's a really strong science leader so she definitely gave me a leg up along the way.

As for the others... culture wasn't much of an issue for me (especially after switching to Hawaii from Tonga in Exploration) so I don't feel like that held me back at all. I got through the entire civics tree each era. I actually did not have any aggressive IPs anywhere near me (rarely ever happens), so I didn't raze one this particular game, but I feel like that was more than made up for by the fact that I was suzeraining all of them and getting all kinds of bonuses from them. I never put specialists in ageless buildings and I only put them in quarters where I had strong adjacency bonuses (and all my science buildings had really good spots with 2-3 resources around them).

That's the thing - I feel like I played really well and did just about everything I could. After the game when I reflected on what I could've done better, I honestly couldn't really think of anything outside of maybe spending money to build more science buildings in towns (urban centers) rather than spending it on railroads... but I had to build railroads and factories just to hold off against the AI winning an economic victory, so I think I would've lost regardless even had I gone that route.

 

[uppi]

Yes, it is challenging, but possible to win a scientific victory while playing peacefully.

You may want to look at the community games and specifically at CG #11, where there was a challenge for a peaceful science victory and a few people managed to do that.

It might not be possible on every map generation, though.

On what turn would you have achieved a science victory? This might be helpful to compare whether you are too slow to get there or you got unlucky with the AIs being very fast.

 

[Tanel]

Economic victory is the easiest to achieve peacefully and you can do so pretty early. I didn't even get to build factories before I won. Culture, Science and Domination are harder but definitely achievable although maybe not 100% guaranteed possibility every game. There is a lot of variability on how well the AI is doing from game to game. Also different civs and leaders have varying power levels.

 

[Takfloyd]

I'm a new Civ VII player since ToT, but I've only played on Deity and won every game so far without going to any wars against the AI. In my current game I'm going for Science victory and so far (turn 10 in the modern age) I have twice the Science income as the strongest AI and I'm researching most techs in 1 turn. If anything, I find the game too easy regardless of victory condition, though Economic victory is in a league of its own for sure, because the Great Banker is broken on faster game speeds (I play on Quick).

The only victory I haven't gone for yet is Military, since well, I tend towards peaceful play. But since the AI has been a total pushover the few times it has declared war on me, I think it would be the easiest one.

 

[MutilationWave]

The only victory I haven't gone for yet is Military, since well, I tend towards peaceful play. But since the AI has been a total pushover the few times it has declared war on me, I think it would be the easiest one.

They're not a pushover in Antiquity, even though it's clear you're quite a good player. I just wish this stayed the same through the other ages.

Are you basing this on defending only? That's easy on any difficulty. Sieging a capital on deity (outside of super early cheese rush) in Antiquity can be brutal.

 

[pjotroos]

Out of curiosity, around what turn do you typically end exploration?
What's your approximate science & culture on the last turn of exploration?
How many turns into modern does the AI start the victory countdown?

I've checked my last fully peaceful Deity playthrough, and this is the turn just before winning by culture.
Happy to share tips for what works for me, but I'm playing on PC, not PS5, and I can't rule out the game just behaving differently on different hardware.

 

[bengalryan9]

FWIW, I'm not making the claim that it's impossible - I know it's not - I'm just curious if every thinks the balance is quite right.

I've seen a couple people in this thread and elsewhere mention that it's very map dependent, and I tend to agree... but that's not really a good thing, is it? I don't think so much should be left up to chance. It's always been a factor, of course, but with science adjacencies being so dependent on resource placement it definitely feels exaggerated here.

I definitely agree that cultural is easier than science as you have a lot more ways to maximize your performance. You can cut some corners there, IMO... but you can't really do that when going for a science victory.

Also worth nothing some other things that may or may not be impacting things... not saying any of these apply to you guys, but they could make a difference. I don't use any mementos. Playing on PS5 means no mods, which can limit my access to some information that the base game maybe doesn't do the best job of presenting. I play on small maps with the default number of leaders. I play with the setting where not every civ is unlocked at age transition, limiting my choices.

Out of curiosity, around what turn do you typically end exploration?
What's your approximate science & culture on the last turn of exploration?
How many turns into modern does the AI start the victory countdown?

I don't have the numbers for exploration age as my autosaves don't go back that far... I'll have to keep an eye on it in my next game and come back to share. In my last game the AI victory countdown started in the mid 60s... so I'm a little slower than your pace but not super far off either.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

it's very map dependent, and I tend to agree... but that's not really a good thing, is it?

Isn't that a very positive thing???

 

[pjotroos]

I've seen a couple people in this thread and elsewhere mention that it's very map dependent, and I tend to agree... but that's not really a good thing, is it? I don't think so much should be left up to chance. It's always been a factor, of course, but with science adjacencies being so dependent on resource placement it definitely feels exaggerated here.

I don't think you can rely purely on resources for adjacencies. Finding 3 or 4 in the right pattern happens rarely, and even if you do, they will despawn between ages. What you want is a couple of the safe ones - gold, silver, jade, silk - paired up with wonders. And if your start doesn't give you anything workable, just reroll. There's no point committing to a 10h+ of play, on the highest difficulty, with self-imposed restrictions that you won't use conquest to bridge the gap, if the circumstances are unfavourable on top of that.

But if you manage to get a decent start, by exploration most of the science doesn't come from the buildings, anyway - jungle gives you tons, Monasteries give you tons, attribute points give you tons. If you pick up reincarnation belief and camp up a few missionaries across the equator, you can get a metric ton of it from Toshakhana. I just wrapped up a Deity game as Isabella / Spain (in all three ages), where I had over 1000 science on turn one of modern - so basically none of that was from specialists, or the leader & civ abilities (there may have been a tiny bit of conquest, though).

FWIW, I'm not making the claim that it's impossible - I know it's not - I'm just curious if every thinks the balance is quite right.

I think the game has a lot of balance issues. For one thing, antiquity is about the right length, and then you enter exploration and that last for what feels like a decade and a half, which in turn means modern is back to being done in an hour and a half. For another, culture victory is ridiculous by default, but I got half of mine by accident, because conquering major settlements is more likely to jumpscare you with culture win that to lead to a military win; to get that one, you gotta focus on grabbing all the crappy, underdeveloped little towns.

But if anything, I feel the difficulty of VII is still a little on the low end. Playing on the highest available difficulty should not be a gimme by default. Refusing to conquest - which is the biggest equliser - should turn it into a hail mary, which requires a perfect start. If it was possible to win Deity on any map, against any enemies, without any conquering, so long as you play reasonably well, where would the challenge be for the players that enjoy the combat?

 

[bengalryan9]

Isn't that a very positive thing???

That whether or not you can win is so dependent on the map generation? I'm not so sure. I like some variety in my maps, don't get me wrong, but a player also shouldn't be facing a situation where they can't win just because they rolled a sub-optimal map. Even if I sit there and re-roll the map until my initial starting spot looks amazing, who is to say the rest of the map that I can't see is any good? It's a balancing act for sure.

most of the science doesn't come from the buildings, anyway - jungle gives you tons, Monasteries give you tons,

True, but these are going to be map dependent. There's a lot of luck involved but I see a lot of maps that barely have any tropical terrain at all (usually when the two main continents are arranged one to the north and one to the south as opposed to the traditional one to the east, one to the west)... my previous attempt at science before this one was while playing as Trung Trac and it was painfully obvious how little tropical terrain I had available across the map, lol. That lack of tropical terrain also cripples any attempt at using the religious belief if you want to go that route. Monasteries are also very good, but I've gone plenty of ages where there isn't a single scientific city state on the whole map. So all of these involve some luck to take advantage of just as much as resource placement does.

But if anything, I feel the difficulty of VII is still a little on the low end. Playing on the highest available difficulty should not be a gimme by default. Refusing to conquest - which is the biggest equliser - should turn it into a hail mary, which requires a perfect start. If it was possible to win Deity on any map, against any enemies, without any conquering, so long as you play reasonably well, where would the challenge be for the players that enjoy the combat?

I mean... there are plenty of ways to address this. For example, should a warmongering player have access to the same amount of tourism income as someone who has been at peace for centuries does? I could easily argue that no, I don't think they should, but I also don't want to nerf a particular playstyle just because I don't particularly enjoy playing that way because I know plenty of other people do. I think there are plenty of paths to equalize the chance a peaceful player has to win without making it too easy for a more aggressive player to win (like through specialized quests, events, bonuses, etc), it doesn't have to just be "well if it's easier for a player to win without war it'll automatically be *really* easy for a player to win *with* war".

I'm not even saying someone playing "reasonably well" should be able to win in these set of circumstances... I think I played a genuinely strong game here. I don't even *want* to win every single game and have no real problem with losing, but I should also have a chance if I do everything well, lol.

I freely admit that I am handicapping myself by playing the way I do. On the other hand, it's never been any issue across the rest of the series, including for me in Civ7 before ToT.

 

[MutilationWave]

That whether or not you can win is so dependent on the map generation? I'm not so sure. I like some variety in my maps, don't get me wrong, but a player also shouldn't be facing a situation where they can't win just because they rolled a sub-optimal map. Even if I sit there and re-roll the map until my initial starting spot looks amazing, who is to say the rest of the map that I can't see is any good? It's a balancing act for sure.


True, but these are going to be map dependent. There's a lot of luck involved but I see a lot of maps that barely have any tropical terrain at all (usually when the two main continents are arranged one to the north and one to the south as opposed to the traditional one to the east, one to the west)... my previous attempt at science before this one was while playing as Trung Trac and it was painfully obvious how little tropical terrain I had available across the map, lol. That lack of tropical terrain also cripples any attempt at using the religious belief if you want to go that route. Monasteries are also very good, but I've gone plenty of ages where there isn't a single scientific city state on the whole map. So all of these involve some luck to take advantage of just as much as resource placement does.


I mean... there are plenty of ways to address this. For example, should a warmongering player have access to the same amount of tourism income as someone who has been at peace for centuries does? I could easily argue that no, I don't think they should, but I also don't want to nerf a particular playstyle just because I don't particularly enjoy playing that way because I know plenty of other people do. I think there are plenty of paths to equalize the chance a peaceful player has to win without making it too easy for a more aggressive player to win (like through specialized quests, events, bonuses, etc), it doesn't have to just be "well if it's easier for a player to win without war it'll automatically be *really* easy for a player to win *with* war".

I'm not even saying someone playing "reasonably well" should be able to win in these set of circumstances... I think I played a genuinely strong game here. I don't even *want* to win every single game and have no real problem with losing, but I should also have a chance if I do everything well, lol.

I freely admit that I am handicapping myself by playing the way I do. On the other hand, it's never been any issue across the rest of the series, including for me in Civ7 before ToT.

Your handicap of no mementos is balanced by the smaller map I believe, but no conquest is a huge limiter, far more than either of those. Your idea of peaceful civs granting greater tourism is a great one in my opinion. Cultural is far too easy. Who wants to vacation in a war zone?

 

[uppi]

FWIW, I'm not making the claim that it's impossible - I know it's not - I'm just curious if every thinks the balance is quite right.

In my opinion, the game is too easy on Deity. I feel like I could play better if I wanted to, but I don't bother, because I can win anyway. For me, the perfect highest difficulty is something I can barely beat when I use all tools at my disposal. I would not always want to play the highest difficulty, but I would want it as an option, especially when I want to try some overpowered build. If I feel comfortable enough to always play the highest difficulty, then it is not difficult enough.

That whether or not you can win is so dependent on the map generation? I'm not so sure. I like some variety in my maps, don't get me wrong, but a player also shouldn't be facing a situation where they can't win just because they rolled a sub-optimal map. Even if I sit there and re-roll the map until my initial starting spot looks amazing, who is to say the rest of the map that I can't see is any good? It's a balancing act for sure.

Right now, I don't think I have ever seen a map which I would have thought is impossible to win. Some might be impossible to win with one hand tied behind your back, but that is your choice and not the fault of the game. If you want to play Civ 7 as a 3X game, feel free to do so, but the game should not be balanced around that. And if you are not having fun on Deity, then that is what the other difficulties are for.

 

[pjotroos]

I mean... there are plenty of ways to address this. For example, should a warmongering player have access to the same amount of tourism income as someone who has been at peace for centuries does?

The current interaction is utterly broken, purely because all tourism is instantly wiped out from the player the moment they lose the city that generated it. There would be much fewer "whoopsie daisy" cultural victories if the cultural score persisted for the builder, the same way economic and scientific points do.

But there's still no getting past the fact the victories are all races, and this is the kind of race where you can always sweep the leg of the guy in front of you with your military. For this to be a proper 4X game, it must include the situations where someone has a runaway science output - say, Queen of Wa Himiko, in an alliance, playing Meiji - and the only way you can win a science game is by removing some of those yields from them. I don't feel it's doing that well enough already.

But I also don't mind playing a more reactive game. In a scenario you've described, where I can't settle tropics, can't use Reincarnation belief, can't access monasteries - and, as a result, can't catch up - I just start producing more cavalry. The cavalry has no adjacency requirements and provides me someone else's science on any terrain type.

 

[bengalryan9]

Your handicap of no mementos is balanced by the smaller map I believe, but no conquest is a huge limiter, far more than either of those. Your idea of peaceful civs granting greater tourism is a great one in my opinion. Cultural is far too easy. Who wants to vacation in a war zone?

Exactly. I would think a peaceful empire would be much more appealing to the great minds of an age, or to corporations and companies, or to artists... why can't this be at all reflected in the game?

Honestly, what real incentive is there to play peacefully? You already give up a lot - you're likely going to be below settlement cap, you're going to potentially lose prime locations that are settled before you get there, and you're giving up the ability to hurt your opponent for the most part - but what do you get in return? Trade routes (nice) and security (which I'd argue is a pretty small advantage since I can already defend my settlements with no issue despite being someone who barely engages with that side of the game).

I don't think adding a few things to incentivize or reward peaceful play really hurts anything, especially if they're genuinely fun mechanics to engage with.