Peny for your thoughts.

[dayhjawk]

Greetings,

I have been playing with the Holy Romans for a while now. The what i considered Mid-Game UU and their UB are really nice. Now I am tring out the Celtic. The typically way I play the Holy Romans isn't working as well with the Celtic so i decided to post here to get some input.

I typcially try and expand to 4-6 cities in Noble. With holy romans, this is possible to get to 6, courthouse mass build and expand from there/conquest from there. With the Celtic I seem to get aronud 3-4 before my money drops to 60% or lower. Suggests?

Also, I try and grab the Great Wall and the Oracle. Both of which I find very usefully. Great wall keeps barbarians out and attack my neighbors, while increasing my chance to get a GG. Oracle I slingshot to get CoL, thus religion and courthouses. However, I am now thinking of going for Pyramids instead of Great Wall, because I can go with Representation, +science, +happiest and run with slavery. Which might give me that extra boost inconsidering I can use slavery a bit more with angry ppl and I get a boost in science. What is your thought on this?

Tech wise this is how I normally go: Quarrying, Mining, Bronze Working, Mysticism, Iron Working, Wheel, Medition, Priesthood, Writing, start picking up old techs while I treechop to get oracle for CoL. (techs not learned in that order that is just the techs that I go for in the beginning). This allows me access to pyramids, great wall, oracle, roads, axemen for a quicker rush, my SU to even better rush if I can copper/iron. I have noticed that with Holy Romans, even thou we both start out with the same techs, I seem to do better with holy romans, where as with the clerics it seems that I get a little behind. Suggestions?

Promotion wise, I have read that I should go with the Hill defense 3 promotion for the +25% hill attack and +50 withdraw. Should I?

Also with the 2 leaders, I am lost at which one I should go with. One gives no anarcy with I really like, while the other gives my units the +combat. which if i go with the +hill defense route of pomotions, gives my guys not only that but also the +10% str. So I am thinking that taking the leader without no anarcy is probably a better choice.

 

[madscientist]

Most will disagree with me but the best start for either Celt leader

1) Found an early religion.
2) Shoot for getting a Great Prophet for the shrine. Build the oracle or stonehenge (should be SH, your a celt dammit!) and the religion temple for the priest.
3) Second tech should be for food, either fishing/agriculture/AH.
4) Third tech archery.
5) Build warrior first and let pop expand. Build the first worker to coincide with finished the food tech (unless fishing).
6) Once you are established, then go down teh mining/BW line.

The Celts you really need a little patience. It's easy to get overeager to go kill people with them, especially Boudica. Currency may be a better option first as the effects are immediate and you can build a market in teh shrined holy city. Also cottage heavily in a few early cities.

Now, when do I get my penny.

 

[CivMcNut]

I think what's really biting you in the tail is that Holy Roman Unique Building you're used to. It gives -75% off on maintenance which can really help you expand like crazy once you've got those unique courthouses down. I would think as the Celts (and everyone else) you've got to be a little more careful about how many distant cities you start founding until you start having enough of a surplus of cash from your core cities (lots of villages and towns), and eventually stuff like banks and wall street and even state property.

 

[dayhjawk]

true i have already noticed that and knew that beforehand. but i think what is getting me is tech wise, holy romans i prolonged iron working, but with celts, i need iron working. a 1 tech more than i'm use to.

 

[Zanttu]

...my money drops to 60% or lower.

Don't be so afraid of RExing. Remember that with more cities you will generate more research even if you have to drop the slider a bit. You need at least those 6 cities, so don't stop at 4. After settling 6 cities, you should still be able to run 30-40% research, which is high enough for fast recovering.

 

[InFlux5]

I typcially try and expand to 4-6 cities in Noble. With holy romans, this is possible to get to 6, courthouse mass build and expand from there/conquest from there. With the Celtic I seem to get aronud 3-4 before my money drops to 60% or lower. Suggests?

There should be no difference between the two economically, except the Rathaus (Holy Roman UU) reduces maintenance an extra 25%. The Celts have a higher happy cap for each city, so if anything they should have a bit more commerce.

Also, I try and grab the Great Wall and the Oracle. Both of which I find very usefully. Great wall keeps barbarians out and attack my neighbors, while increasing my chance to get a GG. Oracle I slingshot to get CoL, thus religion and courthouses. However, I am now thinking of going for Pyramids instead of Great Wall, because I can go with Representation

The Great Wall is a horrible wonder to get addicted to. It has its place in certain games, but rarely is it worth the hammers. Relying on the Oracle for a CoL slingshot is fine through Monarch, but can't be relied upon after that. Of the three, the Pyramids is the standout favorite. But don't invest in the Pyramids unless you plan to run Caste System to really take advantage of Representation. To improve your game, try to pick just one of these wonders instead of building 2-3 every time.

Tech wise this is how I normally go: Quarrying, Mining, Bronze Working, Mysticism (...)

Civ is too complex, and each game is too unique, to give rules about what to do ahead of time. For example, if I were playing on Emperor, even starting with Mysticism and a 2-commerce tile I wouldn't bother racing for an early religion, while at earlier levels it would be possible.

Should you follow the Guerilla (hill combat) line of promotions? I don't know, does your enemy have a lot of cities on hills?

Also with the 2 leaders [Brennus and Boudica], I am lost at which one I should go with. One gives no anarcy with I really like, while the other gives my units the +combat.

Depends on how you want to play. Aggressive's cheap Barracks and free Combat I shines in an early rush. Spiritual is more of a long-haul trait, and will only help with warmongering after you unlock key civics. Of the two I'd say Spiritual is overall more useful; but again, for a very early rush Aggressive gives you a nice edge.

It sounds like you're benefiting from Charlemagne's cheaper Settlers and faster expansion. This is the only thing that might give him a financial advantage over the Celts in the early game. But again, the Celts have a higher happy cap (with cheap temples to boot) so they should be working more tiles and, thus, producing more commerce.

If your economy is the rough spot, of the three leaders I'd go with Brennus. With 3 religions and a Spiritual/Charismatic leader you should be able to easily grow very large cities. Unless you're slacking off on cottages this should equate to a very large GNP.

Try not to focus on specific wonders or combat improvements, and instead take a long view of your game. Adapt to each situation and avoid diverting hammers to projects that don't advance your overall goal. Keeping out barbarians is nice, but how many extra units could those hammers have produced? Which is more useful in the current game? The answer will always be different.

-EDIT-

holy romans i prolonged iron working, but with celts, i need iron working.

The Celtic UU isn't good enough to make Iron Working a priority. If you've got Bronze you're good to go. (If you just think they're cool and want to build them, that's different.)

 

[tycoonist]

Most will disagree with me but the best start for either Celt leader

1) Found an early religion.
2) Shoot for getting a Great Prophet for the shrine. Build the oracle or stonehenge (should be SH, your a celt dammit!) and the religion temple for the priest.
3) Second tech should be for food, either fishing/agriculture/AH.
4) Third tech archery.
5) Build warrior first and let pop expand. Build the first worker to coincide with finished the food tech (unless fishing).
6) Once you are established, then go down teh mining/BW line.

The Celts you really need a little patience. It's easy to get overeager to go kill people with them, especially Boudica. Currency may be a better option first as the effects are immediate and you can build a market in teh shrined holy city. Also cottage heavily in a few early cities.

Now, when do I get my penny.

you don't get a penny because archery is worthless. BW should always come first (except perhaps on deity). religion is too risky above monarch unless you can work an oasis. celts should always eliminate a nearby neighbor before 1AD or you have wasted your opportunity. (hell, that's a pretty good guide for most civs IMO).

oh and i want my penny

 

[dayhjawk]

i normally beeline for BW, pick up Masonry and roads, then beeline to CoL, which finds me a relgion and courthouses. Don't really go for hte religion.. but more for the courthouses as the less maintence cost helps both in war and expanding. Archery i pickup after CoL and some of the other techs I missed. Try to limit it to 2-5 techs depending on the game before i start beeline to the next tech. If someone is nearby and really close, I try and take them out. Normally AxeRush. Which is what I am thinking of doing in the beginning then throw in the Celts SU into the mix. Prolonging IW not that long but long enough to pickup Masonry and/or Wheels.

I have seen in the last game I played, I beelined for IW. By the time I had 5 swordsmen ready for a Rush, the AI was already rushing me with 6 Axemen and 2 swordsmen.

 

[dayhjawk]

1) Found an early religion.

The reason I go for CoL not going for the courthouse, as the added bonus of religion. Don't really care for it, but it's a bonus package. The reason I do not go for a early religion is because too many times tring to get it, someone else finds it the turn before I do. Remember I playing on normal setting. Judaism is ok, but I typically play with my buddy in a game, and he trys for it. But outside of the 2 real early religions, I still would go for CoL. Courthouse + religion. The others have alright advances, but I still prefer CoL.


2) Shoot for getting a Great Prophet for the shrine. Build the oracle or stonehenge (should be SH, your a celt dammit!) and the religion temple for the priest.

Like above the 3 wonders I see built fast is SH and GW. I normally skip SH, as I have noticed that barbarians start around turn 200. Finding a city, I can build a unit, oblisk, then go from there. Yeah SH has it's bonus, but I have learned to work without it.

3) Second tech should be for food, either fishing/agriculture/AH.

Only reasons I try not to get one of these is with what techs I am tring to learn, I have noticed that I can stay a little of ahead of the AI if I go for those techs and prolong the ones I can wait on.

4) Third tech archery.

No commit here, as I see archery as an good choice, but at the same time tring to work it into the picture.

5) Build warrior first and let pop expand. Build the first worker to coincide with finished the food tech (unless fishing).

I build Worker first then warrior, if i'm at pop 2, I go for settle, If not, another warrior.

6) Once you are established, then go down teh mining/BW line.

The Celts you really need a little patience. It's easy to get overeager to go kill people with them, especially Boudica. Currency may be a better option first as the effects are immediate and you can build a market in teh shrined holy city. Also cottage heavily in a few early cities.

Now, when do I get my penny.

 

[Bleys]

Relying on the Oracle for a CoL slingshot is fine through Monarch, but can't be relied upon after that.

Although your post is very strong and offers some solid advice, I disagree with this part quite a bit. Oracle-CoL is a very simple, reliable combo right up through Immortal (perhaps not on Deity, not sure since I have yet to try that difficulty), especially since that tech is already one of his early targets. We arent talking the old-school vanilla CS sling here, which was indeed grossly overpowered, and not doable on Monarch and above except in extreme cases (like IND civ, marble in BFC, and some sort of war among undiscovered AI civs).

I think the Pyramids is a MUCH more difficult wonder to rely on, and potentially waste the hammers on, at the highest levels.

 

[Hammurbabble]

religion is too risky above monarch unless you can work an oasis.

Just to test this, I played 5 starts on Deity, normal speed, normal size, continents map (which shouldn't make any difference to this of course), playing Saladin (the Arabs being one of the civs that start with Mysticism), and my first research was Polytheism. I got Hinduism four times out of the five. The one time I failed, I would have succeeded if I'd gone for Meditation instead. My commerce over these five tries varied widely, from one where I had two silver in my FC, to one where it was all forests and I was on a lake. Research time was 12 turns to 15 turns.

The line where you can't be totally sure of getting one of the early two even starting with Mysticism is Prince, not Monarch, because that's where the AI starts researching faster than you do. But I've found you have much better chances of founding Hinduism than Buddhism, because it seems much more likely for AI civs that start with Mysticism to research Meditation rather than Poly. No matter the difficulty, it's clear to me that if you're playing a civ that starts with Mysticism you can get Hinduism more often than not. I think the people who say it's impossible probably go for Buddhism instead. That, I would have failed at four times out of five.

celts should always eliminate a nearby neighbor before 1AD or you have wasted your opportunity. (hell, that's a pretty good guide for most civs IMO).

I emphatically disagree with that "always." An early rush is IMO very situational. Do you have a neighbor really close by, so that his capital can be made part of your empire? (As a bonus, did he found a religion?) Do you have copper, or at least horses, within easy range, preferably in your capital's FC but at least not too far away so it's convenient to build a second city to exploit? If the answer to both of these is "yes," then you should go for an early rush. If the answer to either of them is "no," then you should not. (Exception: if you're playing the Incas, you should do it even without the metal or horses. Maybe if you're playing the Aztec as well, although that requires shooting for Iron Working.) (Edit: Ditto for the Native Americans.)

Whether or not you have an early UU isn't the deciding factor. It's just a bonus making it a little easier if you do. If the answers to the above two questions are both yes, you should go for it even if you're playing the Americans or Germans. (Or Indians, who don't even have a combat UU.)

 

[vicawoo]

1 AD is really late, your basic cities should easily be up by then.

Code of law isn't really a slingshot, all you need is writing. It's a good idea if you're REXing so you can get courthouses quickly, whereas if you're rushing, you can't spare the hammers.

And if you go early religion, you probably have to go archery to avoid dying. Depending on the difficulty, you won't get bronze working before the barbs come out. Shrine, maybe if you're by a long river, so you don't have to use missionaries!

 

[Hammurbabble]

Do the barbs come out sooner at higher difficulty? I understood it was geared to when everyone had built 2 cities on average. I've never actually played through on Deity yet, but that initial research wasn't taking any longer than on Prince. (I imagine the AI researches a good deal faster, though.) Getting BW 12 turns later shouldn't mean you don't have it by the time you see barb warriors. But I think archery's a good idea anyway after BW, because what if you don't have copper? Wait until you hit Iron Working to have decent units for defense? Nothing wrong with archers for city defense, I always build some even when I do have axemen.

 

[BalbanesBeoulve]

The Great Wall is a horrible wonder to get addicted to. It has its place in certain games, but rarely is it worth the hammers. Relying on the Oracle for a CoL slingshot is fine through Monarch, but can't be relied upon after that. Of the three, the Pyramids is the standout favorite. But don't invest in the Pyramids unless you plan to run Caste System to really take advantage of Representation. To improve your game, try to pick just one of these wonders instead of building 2-3 every time.

I don't see how you could say it's not worth the hammers. It's become my new favorite wonder, and i play custom games without barbarians. An early great spy is absolutely amazing. Settle him in an opponent's cities, and you can just steal anything you need. On emperor the AI will get calendar, construction, mathematics, metal casting, etc way before you. With that great spy you can steal them all, while you focus on the liberalism race. Your mileage may vary depending on how many failures you get, etc. But waiting 5 turns before stealing, i was able to steal math, construction, metal casting, machinery, feudalism, and engineering before my points ran out.

Of course, this isn't nearly as useful on low difficulties where you'll be outteching the AI from the beginning, or an isolated start, or if the civ you infiltrate gets wiped out, or ends up teching like molasses. But there's no such thing as a sure thing.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Guerilla III is really powerful (Hill attack and UU-mounted-class WITHDRAWAL) and worth getting if you can reach it for newly trained units. Not a reach with civics+CG and at all. Of course you can get pretty deep in the medic line that way too. Definitely worth considering for warring purposes...it will be pretty rare that equal-tech defenders kill your units once you have siege, which leads to faster wars.

 

[dayhjawk]

Well a buddy and me just played a near 12 hr game, and I'm iffy about the celts now. I got the UU and got the pomotions to get the +withdraw and hill attack, also went into woodmen. Was great getting them to the other civs cities, but when it came to taking out the city, they didn't do so hot. Even vs. hill cities. They just didn't have the extra power that they needed. Against 1 archer on a hill with a wall, 5 of my guys, sitting with 5-6 promotions. I would take out that archer, and be left with 1 nearly dead UU. City attack and str, are two bonuses that I have learned to see as a MUST for city attacks. It gives you that edge. Yeah celts promotion line gets you there and a little boost in power, but against a city.... i'm not seeing it worth it. now against anything outside a city, there was no odds against my guys, it was murder. Only thing I can see is get the promotions, get whatever +exp u can get, other civs, barbs, etc. Beeline for CS to upgrade them to Macemen, then I actually could see a change in the +city attack. That is what happened in my game. By this time, you also have catapults, to give to extra support. But before all this, I just couldn't see a way to attack with my guys against a city. Basically for every archer, I had to have 5 guys. True on rare times, I would have 20% or below odds and my guys would kill the archer.. but those times were far and few.

Also dind't get the Great Wall let my buddy get it, which actually helped him out. For me the barbs gave me the +exp that i needed for the promotions. I just remembered to get Archery before turn 200, as that is when we typically see them and they start attacking. I got pyramids, but I really didn't see any big change in my civ with it. So I am at the point it is a waste of turns to build. Oracle I won't give up, as like I have said the Oracle to CoL route is the best thing I have seen and done and I still don't see any benefit to getting a religion before then. Sure you get the religion and a chance to spread to other civilization, but I have seen peacefully civs declare war on me on the other side of the continent a good 8+ cities away, and have no clue why as there are no negitive relationship between us. Even when we are the same religion. (think the AI is TOOO aggressive personally). I see the pros to getting a religion early.. but I personally see a bigger pro to getting CoL/Confusism. (Relgion + lower maintence)

I am going to try a single player game later, as the celts. But this time not do what I did in the Multi. game we just finished. I think I am going to play Celts peacefully get my UU use them against barbs/defense, try and get CS asap so I can get the upgrade to Macemen before anyone else, then start my rushing. I think that is probably the best route.

Also I noticed that I have how I do my techs planned out great up to CoL. From there, I dont' have a plan, I don't go for a next higher tech, I start picking up my old techs, and by the time I grab the ones I kinda needed but managed to skip for a while, the AI is higher than me in tech. Also believe that the AI is runinng special economies, instead of hamlets like I do. I just saw Great Scienist spawn madly across all other civs, and I am just not getting to the point where I am just a little bhind them, mostly dued to my buddy and me trading techs as we find them.

 

[InFlux5]

No matter the difficulty, it's clear to me that if you're playing a civ that starts with Mysticism you can get Hinduism more often than not.

Sorry but my experiences greatly contradict this. On Monarch+ I have little hope for a religion even with Mysticism and an oasis. (Yes, I was beat by the AI even starting next to an oasis, believe that was on Emperor though.) While I agree that the AI seems to go for Meditation over Polytheism, I frequently have two civs that start with Mysticism in my games, and often the first two religions are founded within a couple turns of each other (and both before I get to them.) The main factor seems to be how many rival civs are in the game. I always play with 9-10 civs which is part of the reason I'm almost always beat. I don't understand the dynamic completely, but losing the Poly race even with an oasis was pretty disheartening.

I don't see how you could say it's [Great Wall] not worth the hammers. It's become my new favorite wonder, and i play custom games without barbarians. An early great spy is absolutely amazing.

I don't have enough personal experience using that Great Spy to really comment. I agree it's more valuable when the AI has a tech lead. My original comment was really meant to say "getting addicted to the Great Wall so you don't have to worry about barbs is a horrible idea." But you might be right, maybe the GPP make up for the near-useless benefit of the wonder..

 

[InvisibleStalke]

Celts are a military civ - you want to engage in early war with them. Either will do fine, but you want to maximize the charismatic bonus for bigger cities and better promoted units.

Great wall is a good combo with charismatic. Declare war on a neighbour and skirmish in your territory for a long time to build up great general points. Settle all the great generals you make - it won't be long before you can produce CR3 units straight out of your HE city. Use the spy to supplement your research - which won't be as strong.

I like to play celts on a map suited to their UU and UB - either choose map settings that generate lots of hills or play on a highlands map. It doesn't make them dominant, but it is more fun.

Build all your cities on hills if you can. Guerilla 3 isn't as good as woodsmen 3 or CR3, but it is great to have Guerilla 3 gallic warriors when suiciding agaisnt longbows on hills.

Don't worry about the science slider going to 60%. My rule of thumb for cottage based science is that if the slider is 50% or over I can afford another city.

If you are going for Oracle, consider taking Theology instead of COL. Its worth more beakers in trade and +2 exp on units is worth a lot to a charismatic leader. Also you can found the AP and get bonus hammers from temples (great for Spiritual leaders).

Courthouses aren't really worth it when you have less than maybe 10 cities or so. They cost a huge amount to whip or build for non organized leaders. Which generally means that only your core cities can build them - and they are the ones that cost least in maintenance.

You should look to other solutions for maintenance - getting to currency and having your core cities build markets and running merchants will probably do more for you than having your core cities build courthouses. A market in a core city producing a lot of cash will do better than a courthouse in the same city and the +1 gold per city for trade routes immediately helps.

Getting the shrine income going will help pay for these cities. Consider sending your free missionary to a nearby civ that doesn't have a religion to get them started on spreading the religion too.

 

[InFlux5]

Great wall is a good combo with charismatic.

Okay, I admit I'm a little too down on the GW. It has its uses, quirky though they may be. I think the Great Spy is definitely the best thing the GW has going for it though.

Courthouses ... cost a huge amount to whip or build for non organized leaders.

You should look to other solutions for maintenance - getting to currency and having your core cities build markets and running merchants will probably do more for you than having your core cities build courthouses. A market in a core city producing a lot of cash will do better than a courthouse in the same city and the +1 gold per city for trade routes immediately helps.

Well-said and so true. Before you build a Courthouse, look at the upper-left of the city screen, and not just the city maintenance. Look at the cash you're bringing in, and just how much science/wealth is being created. In most cases, a Courthouse should be the last thing you build, as some other building could probably provide a higher boost in another area. (They're all related! For example, a Library could allow you to drop the slider 10% without losing research time, which could save a lot more than the +2 the Courthouse will create.)

 

[Bleys]

I like the GW quite a bit. I almost always build it, even if playing Egypt (where I always go for Stonehenge, free UBs in all cities is pretty nice).

I have found its most important use to be something that doesnt happen every game, the Random Barb events. Yes, I know that is no reason to build it (the other reasons already mentioned are much more convincing) but for some reason, I seem to have a random barb event in every game on my continent. Perhaps thats because of my map choice, I prefer Continents and Hemispheres over Pangaea and Island/Water based maps, but I am positive I have had one event or another in at least 4 out of 5 games. Skipping the GW lost me a couple of those games (well, ok, I quit them after losing a couple cities, or a settler, or whatever, I only actually got "destroyed" once, in my very very first BTS game ever, LOL).

I offered the 60% rule as a "general" beginner reference point. Each game runs differently. If you're not pounding out cottages, then 60 is a good number. If you are, then you can certainly dip below that, especially if you are attentive to ensuring your cities are working the cottages to jack em up.