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Pericles Deity Fractal NHNE Low sea

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by BornInCantaloup, Jul 7, 2019.

  1. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    Format is in the title, everything else standard. It's just a random map I rolled earlier today and I figured I'd share it with the forums.
    It's probably on the easier side of deity, even though it offers some decision making and... as always with deity, you know how it starts, you never know how it ends.

    Starting screenshot :
    Spoiler :


    I'll post a detailed account of my first 50 turns later on.
    Have fun :)
     

    Attached Files:

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  2. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    Turn 50 :
    Spoiler :
    SIP. Easy, simple decision. Then there are two options :
    - Worker first (15 turns). Requires Agriculture (about 10 turns) and then it would be nice to have Animal Husbandry (about 15 turns). It doesn't fit too well. Researching The Wheel in between could be an option. Mining --> Bronze Working is looking very expensive, since Mining doesn't improve any tile at all. So, 2nd option :
    - Workbat first : Grow to size 2, then do 5H/t. The clams aren't very good tiles but the extra commerce helps a bit. It sort of justifies the delay on the worker. Delaying the worker gives enough time to research AH and, possibly, BW.

    Notice : jungle to the south. This means it might be tough to develop a nice chunk of land early on. Pericles being CRE/PHI... he's not the worst leader for that type of start. Getting a trade for Alphabet & Iron Working should be an objective to keep in mind from t0.
    Also note : none of the 4 specials in Athens' BFC produce hammers. This may be troublesome. This might be a case where settler/worker whips are set with overflow.

    So, workboat :
    Spoiler :

    Grow on 3 food, check your hammers before growing, adjust tiles to gain a turn. A couple of neighbours are met past the jungle line.

    AH revealed BFC horses. The hammer tile is welcome. Both neighbours are PROtective, Horse Archers are immune to first strikes... You might wanna consider a rush.
    There's a nice river going south from the capital. A decent city could be settled on the sugar. It's not great. There are gems, too. All jungled.
    Spoiler :


    After AH, I decide to research The Wheel. Possibly a weak choice. Bronze is interesting, too, but requires more than 20 turns and the limited number of city spots is a deterrent.
    Other option, Writing. Being CRE/PHI, again, unlocking the Alpha trade. But hiring specialists at this point in the game is a no-go. The hit in production would be too much.

    After the worker, I start on a warrior (you kinda need one). City is size 3 and I improve the horses before the corn :
    Spoiler :


    I know I'll settle right on my borders : on the sugar. So, I don't think I need to complete the warrior before starting on a settler.
    I'll start my settler at size 4 and finish improving my specials. Since the horses will be completed the turn Athens grows to 4 and it's faster to pasture than farm, I do it this way.
    I lose a couple of worker turns (roading) but I gain some hammers in Athens. All in all, pretty similar.

    Settler, Mining, the overflow from the settler completes the warrior :
    Spoiler :


    Looking at this above screenshot, it shows, how weak The Wheel is. Both cities would be connected without a road. And I'll settle further along the river. I'll start roading into the jungle, next.
    After this warrior, I still have some overflow hammers. Those I put into another settler, then I grow to 5, spending 1 turn on a warrior, then resume the settler :
    Spoiler :


    ^ Sparta took the horses and started on a chariot, because it fits.
    I wanna block the gems, possibly claim them with city 3. Being so close to Bronze Working, I also want to set up a settler whip and overflow into a Workboat (hence why I grew to 5, set up the whip), so :
    Spoiler :


    Spoiler :


    Having spent 1 turn growing at size 5 is fine. If anything it hastens the regrowth from size 3 to 4.
    Sure, the unhappy citizen eats some food but it's not like the city was losing 6 food a turn to unhappies.
    Spoiler :


    The settler will gain two turns in movement from the road. That's about 1 chop but saves the forest. Maybe The Wheel was acceptable, after all.
    Saladin just settled the ivory along the river, so I'll have to review my settling options. (With BW and no Wheel, that 3rd city would be cut off the trade network.)

    Turn 50 overview :
    Corinth is a great city and very unhealthy, can't grow. Scout has survived and found a position to fogbust. There are a couple of city spots to the south-west :
    Spoiler :


    Chariot is done, can start scouting to the East. Sparta put a turn into a worker and will get a chop, so for now it grows : I'll whip 1pop for the worker. That 2nd worker will improve Corinth's cows. It would be nice if I could connect my health resources by then to start growing the city.
    Athens has a garrison unit and grows again towards another settler.
    Spoiler :


    Only the Stonehenge was built, in 2520 BC.
    Arabia founded Judaism in 2120 BC. (Means the Oracle isn't an option, because Priesthood is so close to Monotheism.)

    I'm probably not going for any wonders : I basically don't have any production at all.
    Most of the question, at his point is :
    - how many cities to plant down ? I'll get Writing, so cities can run specialists. Chariot might reveal stuff to the East, can see nananas already ;
    - was it sane to skip Pottery ? No Granaries doesn't look too bad, here, but no cottages to offset the city maintenance is kinda terrible. Having secured 2 gems is cool but I can feel the maintenance hit already and it will take long before the city is productive.
    - Arabia has early metal, is Protective and trains as many units as the worst warmongers... bleh. Is Mao any better target ? This isn't sure. Mao has a reputation.

    So ? Settle, (try to) tech up ? <-- Is what I did. If you wanna showcase a rush, feel free.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2019
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  3. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    Turn 75 :
    Spoiler :
    This leads to 1000 BC and about closes the end of the initial expansion. Should you prepare a rush, it would put you well on your way (expansion stopped earlier).

    So, with Bronze Working in, I can finally chop into forests (only Athens has forests, which is duh) :
    Spoiler :


    ^ Again, I grew into 1 unhappy and then started on a settler. This chop will allow for a 2pop whip with a nice overflow. Since my city doesn't have natural hammers, I will use the overflow to complete half of my Library. So, I need a short delay. Notice the whip anger is fading in 2 turns, so it's better to stagnate now and grow when the city is happy again.

    After this chop, my worker will connect the corn and the pig, so that Corinth becomes a healthy size 1 city. Speaking of Corinth, the 2nd worker is in time to improve the cows :
    Spoiler :


    ^ Next order of business will be to camp the ivory. I part-roaded 1 turn the jungle the worker is on and... I'll complete that road before camping. I'll even connect the cows, which is a questionable use of my worker turns. (1 less worker turn is lost but it delays the happiness by 1 turn...)

    So, in Athens, this leads to :
    Spoiler :




    ^ Unhappy and forest are whipped, overflow goes into the library.

    Settler out. Chariot uncovered some corn, fish and clams to the East. This is where I go, despite the lack of roads through the jungle. The path I marked isn't the path I took.
    I'm much more weary of Mao taking the corn than Saladin claiming the whole of my westside. Also, claiming the corn secures the fish.
    Meanwhile, I'll slowly make my way towards Sailing. Writing in, open borders, instant connexion with Saladin. Got some Judaism spread already :
    Spoiler :


    Settler in position. I think I waited a couple of turns, because I don't have the funds to research Sailing.
    Chariot sees some nice things.
    Spoiler :


    Meanwhile, Athens regrows to size 6 and has 2 happiness coming, to offset its 2 unhappies : Jewish missionary is its way and the camp is almost done.
    So, I've got an okay opportunity to revolt into Judaism in the coming turns :
    Spoiler :


    With the Library done in Athens and the ability to run PHIlosophical scientists, I'm not whipping this next settler. Instead, I keep slowly chopping with my single worker.
    I've got 2 possible city locations to the SW and 1 to the East, so Athens goes for another settler next :
    Spoiler :


    ^ Sparta produced the workboat for Thebes and stays on workboat duty for the time being. Corinth has almost done its library (nothing else to do, really).

    City 5 goes to the South-west and the settler meets en route an Arabian settler party. I can't settle the southernmost spot but can be happy with a triple-food location :
    Spoiler :


    ^ Basra. Can't have it all. My second worker is mining a hill (not much to do for these 2 workers... eeek !). Settler for city 6 has been whipped, Athens overflows into a Lighthouse (doesn't run scientists at the moment ; doesn't really need to, there is no rush for an Academy running 0% science). Sparta gets a chop, into a Galley that will head to the west and try to send a settler offshore. A workboat is already in position by Argos and will have a little time to scout that island.
    Seems like I got a 3rd worker : Sparta whipped a worker. I needed to send one towards Thebes (losing 5 turns travelling through the jungle) and I kept one in the north.

    1000 BC, 58 gold, doing +9/turn. This isn't good. I met plenty of AIs in the East (scouting chariot ftw) and Willem has Alphabet already (of course, he has).
    Under standard setting, you'd want 200 gold by this time and have started teching towards the Alpha trade. 875 BC is the standardest of standard dates for an Alphabet trade. I'll be late on that.
    Being PHI and spamming Libraries can make up for this delay, bulbing my way out of the hole but it isn't desirable in any way to have such low commerce.
    Is it better to settle 2 less cities and head for Construction ? With jungled cities (no chops) and Protective neighbours ? Not sure...

    Some of the East :
    Spoiler :


    Well that looks good. This is a cluster of 3 barbarian cities, surrounding the bananadyes riverside.
     
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  4. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    Turn 99 :
    Spoiler :
    This is where I stopped playing because I know I'm going to indulge myself in the following turns. Anyway.
    Anyway, I'm getting my Libraries up. Cities like Corinth start hiring scientists, since I lack the tech to do anything else. Athens produced the first Great Scientist and got its Academy. I could have bulbed Maths but it's already up for trade. Willem and Wang have Alphabet :
    Spoiler :


    9 more turns and I crawl my way up to Aesthetics. Nobody has it but I can't broker Alphabet much. Iirc, only Charlemagne lacked Alpha when I got it.
    Thebes gets its library up and runs scientists at size 3. Knossos gets the food to set up its infrastructure. Sparta temporarily gives the horses back to Athens and runs scientists, too. You get the research where you can...
    Spoiler :




    ^ Athens trains yet another settler (all settlers trained in Athens) but I won't be able to ship it to the western island. Saladin has just landed there. So I'll send this settler to the east, maybe find a spot.
    Also, Basra stole my iron. I've got horses but no metal.

    t90, I finally get Alphabet and immediately trade for both Pottery and Iron Working (and Maths). The trades are not good but those are techs I sorely need.
    I gather my tremendous workforce (number 4 !) to clean up my jungled resources : gems and rice. I've had time to pre-road, so it's a swift task.
    Cities immediately start on granaries :
    Spoiler :


    Techwise, I'm going towards Priesthood. Willem has Currency already (could sell him Meditation for 60g and trade it to Wang for Priesthood), so I can hope to trade for it. Also unlocks Monarchy.
    And the gpp I've produced means I can easily envision a Philosophy bulb. So, I'm going for Code of Laws. Actually, Athens stops running scientists and whips a Lighthouse (+3 food) when its bar is almost full : this will allow Thebes to complete the 2nd Great Person. Thebes will need its food in order to set up infrastructure.
    Spoiler :


    Cute trick : Athens stores its overflow hammers from the Lighthouse (20+) by building research. I'll overflow into a settler when it reaches the happy cap :
    Spoiler :


    ^ +16 food... the city can work specialists any time. Since the gems and rice are improved, I've split my workers again and a couple of them are stacked to cottage these southern capital tiles.
    A single other worker (got 5 total) has made the first cottage and will circle the north, cottaging everything, including the bare grassland hill.

    And this is why I stopped playing :
    Spoiler :


    This is really a terrible idea but I'll do it anyway. I'd like to get 3-5 cities in this area. I won't have the military to capture any of the barb cities but being Creative and all, you know... I can establish a foothold and it's green.
    So, Athens can build a settler in 4 turns and then whip another. I'll have two size 4 cities that could whip a settler each. In, say, about 8 turns, I could have 4 cities in this area. Maybe ? Then I'll lack the workforce to improve the land, will be strangled by maintenance and it will all be very grim as I'll start working on Courthouses. Maybe I'll even get a Great Spy from hiring guys.
    It's tempting. I should delay the first planting (need CoL), improve my scouting. Barbs cities are falling RIGHT NOW and the AIs will follow with settler parties, so there isn't much time.
    After bulbing Philosophy, I'll probably a) build a Monastery in Thebes, on the Chinese borders and b) revolt into Pacifism. Then I'll try to crawl my way up to Civil Service.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2019
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  5. Anysense

    Anysense Chieftain

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    Retrospectively, elepult from 4 or 5 cities was a better option. Those coastal cities are only really good for some early teching, because they won't have anything better than coast for quite a while, but they make for a very good compact setup for any kind of construction rush. Chariots are OK for clean up and Sladin has some really good land, meaning that you get an excellent reward for initial effort. Early commerce is fine and you get a library very cheap. With Math bulb you could get decent date, like 500BC or even earlier.
     
  6. Anysense

    Anysense Chieftain

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    May be, not only retrospectively.
    1. Its low sea level.
    2. You haven't got much land to yourself.
    3. This land isn't exactly great.
    4. You have ivory and horses.
    Probably worth trying to get more and better land by force? Seems logical enough.
     
  7. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    Yes, I think I agree. It might not be that easy, though. If you get gems/ivory, you get a 0 production city. So, can you really get the production by 500 BC ? Perhaps. You can't have forests but you can have 3 other productive cities.
    Construction also gives access to the infamous Odeon. But I'll leave this route to another player :)

    I think skipping Pottery might have been a bigger mistake. There could also be a city 3S2W of Athens, taking its pigs. Athens has enough food with clams, clams, corn. (It's possible I should backfill this ; it's quite an oversight on my part.)
    So, eh ? Do you wanna do it, Anysense ?
     
  8. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Pericles is a leader that I always try to shoe-horn into a construction attack, the half price odeons paired with creative... So nice.
    If there is even a slight indication on this map that a construction rush is viable, I would probably fall for that invite right away. :)

    Haven't opened the spoilers yet because I havn't gotten time to look at the game yet.
    RL is interfering with my gaming!! :D
     
  9. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    Yes, there are indications, very early on :)
     
  10. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    I have the starting save downloaded, hopefully I'll have some time tonight. Been "busy" with the two cringe-maps Fippy provided last few nights.
    One of them also catapults, so I'm eager for more! And Pericles with good land should be more fun than Sally with a godforsaken food deprived peninsula. :D
     
  11. Anysense

    Anysense Chieftain

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    I forgot how to play on normal speed without double gold and eight workers stolen before 3000 BC, but why not give it a try?
    Spoiler 1 :

    The start is pretty much the same as BiC did, except that I researched the Wheel after Writing. Saw no point early wheel as AI's were there to take care of the barbs.
    I built two warriors before starting on first settler and 5->3 whipped on t41. Built another warrior and started building second settler. No wheel so worker is prechopping forests. No point in early chopping with that amount of food.
    Civ4ScreenShot0017.JPG
    Saladin stole the riverside:mad: I decide to settle east of the cows - keeps ivory in the first ring and grabs two forests. Very weak for a second city but ivory must be secured as soon as possible. Rember that foul UB of Saladin's? Library with 4:culture: is not a joke.
    Civ4ScreenShot0022.JPG
    Another settler whip 5->3 and overflow goes into library. Still banking gold to tech the Wheel. Good timing.
    Civ4ScreenShot0033.JPG
    So far Athens haven't used corn much. Corn can't be shared but pigs can. Third city is settled 3S1W so it can work lake.
    Civ4ScreenShot0045.JPG
    Athens slowbuilding another settler. There is no need to rush GS, I will only need him when I'm ready to start researching Construction.
    Still no Alpha by AI. Its a bit annoying when they are so slow about it exactly when you need it ASAP. I will need Pottery quite soon. Would be a shame to selftech it after delaying it for such a long time.
    Civ4ScreenShot0053.JPG
     
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  12. Anysense

    Anysense Chieftain

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    Spoiler 2 :

    T74 HBR
    Saladin got Alpha:banana:
    Still two turns to GS, then I can trade Math+HBR for Alpha and somehting else and backfill with others.
    Civ4ScreenShot0062.JPG
    Fourth city will claim corn, clam and four forests. Something I'd like to have as my second city.
    I was going to settle the 5th on banana (forest in second ring). But that stupid git settled on that very forest. Moreover, there is another iron.:( Would be nice to have a couple of axemen for stack protection but Saladin grabbed all the metals in the area.
    Civ4ScreenShot0066.JPG
    T75. Willem also has Alpha. I make first trade with Saladin, because he is much less likely to trade my techs around (40% threshold against Willems 10%).
    Civ4ScreenShot0069.JPG
    T76. GS. Math bulb.
    Now Athens can whip granary, regrow and whip another settler.
    Civ4ScreenShot0070.JPG
    I get Alpha and Polyteism for Math and HBR on turn 77. Everyone has Masonry but, of course, noby is willing to trade it:rolleyes:
    Apparently Charlie Oracled Metal Casting.
    T78. Looks OK. Although I will have only 3 cities ready to whip units and some forests to chop when Construction arrives. They will also need odeons soon.
    Civ4ScreenShot0080.JPG
    Thebes doing fine. It's a shame that granary is finished with the bin 3/4 full, but otherwise I might have missed that forest which Mao had in the first ring.
    Civ4ScreenShot0090.JPG
    T90. Math+Alpha to Charlie for Monarchy. I'm going to need that :) bonus.
    T92. Finally, I've got a religion spread! Very conveniently nearly everyone is in Buddhism, so adopting it is a no-brainer.
    I completely forgot about gems:blush: Time to fix it. On the whole, it does not look great, but should be playable.
    Civ4ScreenShot0118.JPG


    Edit: attached the save.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
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  13. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    Well, I take that back, quick, quick ! Hide it somewhere under the desk, so nobody's gonna read it !

    ^ Yes, that seems to work well enough. I notice your Alphabet timing, especially. It's so much better than mine.
    Delaying settlers paid off. Also my detours through The Wheel and then Sailing didn't.
    It's not like my cities 2 & 3 were good. You avoided unhealth like a pro.
     
  14. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    I saw mentioned outside of spoilers that there was horses around, but I tried to ignore that piece of information.
    But play is not completely blind by any strech of imagination.

    To T50
    Spoiler :

    Spent T0 making sure I would not ruin any fish on the peninsula. Just moved back to the original location.
    I think that settle on the corn could be an option though.
    Complicated peninsula, as fish in the west could be grabbed while simultaniously getting the eastern clam, but if there would have been fish in the east, you would lose the northern clam by walking to it....

    Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG
    Saw jungle everywhere, so made a beeline with the scout south before panthers. Met Saladin early and decided to find out if he had a flatland capital. Not sure that a chariot rush is even thinkable against a protective leader though...?
    Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG
    After agri, I reason that I really need to get mining/BW to get any production up. I need some warriors and workboats.
    The pressence of two clams and the lake gives us 3 "poor mans cottages" early on, so I think it's okay even though it's expensive.
    The pig can be farmed.
    Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG
    The poor scout survived a panther attack while trying to fogbust around the ivory, then tagged along with an archer of saladins, Saladins archer died to a barb, and the scout tried to escape but was in the end cornered. Not before revealing a "nice" city in the west though. Settle on the banana would be ok I think.
    Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG
    After BW I go for AH, city 2 will get the pigs and I want them to yield 6 instead of 4, also I want a speedy way to writing, and I see little use for TW and pottery.
    I imagine later on that the capital will stagnate on dual clams and corn and 2 scientists.
    WIth one city on the sugar, a fourth city somewhere along the river will be able to supply ivory for happines without the wheel. All cities will be connected.
    Civ4ScreenShot0004.JPG
    Focused working clams/lake to bost commerce as I'm going for all the expensive stuff, but this turn I layed of them to get to 10hammers for a 3pop whip.
    Civ4ScreenShot0005.JPG
    Saladin has another source of metal in the south. I think this rules out any HA rush funkyness as I have and will spend all forests into other yummy things.
    With some luck, I could get city #3 somewhere down along that river to claim copper (and possibly even wheat...?) but more likely I'll get boxed in w/o Ivory.
    As there is two sources though, he might trade me some, or I can culture conquer one with odon.
    Civ4ScreenShot0006.JPG

     
  15. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    T104
    Spoiler :

    I was planning on a sort of early construction attack, but things didn't look like they where aligned that way.
    Made an acedemy in capital instead and just settled cities peacefully, strangled Mao which settled Tianjin and he eventually gifted that city to me.

    Just settled Argos to put more culture pressure on Saladin while working that second gem.
    In theory I could probably settle for the western fish, and also on the PH south of copper, but I think it's better to just do a late construction attack instead.
    Does elephants work against protective longbows? I'm probably on the path to find out.
    Civ4ScreenShot0029.JPG

    Well... I don't expect longbows from Mao anytime soon, as he is lacking myst. :)
    Saladin has pyramids and alot of other wonders, but Mao does look like he wants to be attacked first.
    Civ4ScreenShot0030.JPG

    Crazy how much resources they trade away. Is this due to low sea level?
    Tied up alot against charly, and can probably renegotiate in 10 turns taking back clam/fish since they value horses so high.
    Civ4ScreenShot0031.JPG

    Can whip alot with this happycap! And this food.... If I could get monarchy somehow, this capital could be sacrificed with extremly aggresive whipping and then letting army stand guard, perhaps gifted away if I move palace?
    Civ4ScreenShot0032.JPG

     
  16. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    That seems blind enough, krikav :
    Spoiler :
    Turn 50 : checking for coastal fish and not researching AH after Agriculture...
    I agree that city 2 should share the pigs, right where you planted it. I settled on the sugar and the city is, in fact, too weak.

    Turn 100 : I thought it would develop better for you. The land you claimed is great (that southern copper...).
    But it seems you were really late to the Alphabet trade, maybe later than I've been. What happened ? Or you couldn't broker anything...
    They all have Construction... How did you tech/trade into this ? HBR and then ?

    I think you delayed your first settlers, as Anysense did. So, I'm not sure how it differed.
    The delay seems fine on this map but, generally, having only 2 cities by 50 (as you both had) is really on the low side of production. I can't say I'm a fan of the 6->3 whip without Granary.

    PRO Longbows defending against Elephant : that probably turns ugly with loads of losses and war weariness.
    Resource trades : the bigger the map, the more resource multiples there are. I also that the bigger the AIs are, the more gold they're willing to trade.
    Sacrificing the cap : I don't about that... you'll get more happies eventually and it's a prime location to bulb your way out of the hole. In a similar situation (no war tech, though), I was setting up a philo bulb.
     
  17. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler :

    Difficult to say what I did wrong and what went bad.

    I didn't do very well with trades.
    HBR for alfa (with 1-2 turns into alfa), likewise a small turn into math.
    Also got IW.
    Every single other tech I had to self-tech. Was going back and forth quite abit not daring to commit.
    Could have done worse though, WvO had alfa early and he often delays math in my experience, so I thought abit about teching that but instead picked up some small techs (TW, pot, sail) and then all of a sudden he had math.
    Had to whip a galley to defend against a barb galley too, that delayed granary even more.
    Copper/Ivory have problems developing, will get good later but didn't really contribute much, Capital had to carry a heavy burden.


    The fun have started!

    Civ4ScreenShot0034.JPG

    Civ4ScreenShot0035.JPG


    Now the fun seem to be over. Quite a few unlucky rolls here I guess, but 6 catapults for a city is expensive!
    Civ4ScreenShot0036.JPG
    Was hoping for quicker progress, and more captured workers, empire development is lagging somewhat.
    Civ4ScreenShot0037.JPG
    I put turns into feud to trade theo for feud with Wang, and then he accepts his worst enemy (Mao) as peace vassal and declares on me this turn.
    I was planning to take CS for peace (I think he would accepted, as he offered the rest of feud+litt last turn), and then take the feud trade with Wang, heal up and resupply and perhaps backstab Sally.

    Now I'm less sure what to do.
    Civ4ScreenShot0038.JPG

    @BornInCantaloup Any luck settling/developing that green eden you found? :)
     
  18. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2010
    Messages:
    3,998
    Location:
    Cantaloupe Island
    I haven't played on today. I played most of it on sunday :)

    Spoiler :
    That's bad... Not being able to extort techs from Mao, that is. It's a huge hit.
    Probably kill him and then buy peace from Wang... Just defend from Wang in the meantime, if he ever sends troops.

    Peace vassal : only checks the diplo relation from the vassal to his master (Mao -> Wang). Wang had a check along the lines of : would he DoW you ? (attitude + power rating)

    Willem and Charlie have Philosophy and they trade techs quite liberally (Wang, too)... Philo is gonna spread. It's going to be tough to remain in this tech race. Philo bulb was your way out of the hole.
    Charlie has 17 cities... lol. Willem is getting Lib... It's grim !
    It's possible Mao breaks free from Wang at some point, like when he's down to 1 city or something. That would be a life saver. So you probably should try and accumulate as much war success as you can (no peace, no cease-fire).
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
  19. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    2,423
    Location:
    Sweden
    @BornInCantaloup
    Spoiler :

    After the Saladin Cringes map I'm apparantly very optimistic! ;)
    Economy isn't all that bad, so can tech abit. Not sure about the pace or the sense in the proposition, but seeing that noone has compass and we are phi, perhaps an astro-bulb could solve some trading-chip issues.


    @Anysense
    Spoiler :

    It looked like your construction attack was way more streamlined, could you get an earlier attackdate and get an edge that way?


    Overall, the map is interesting with land that is short term bad, but has long term potential!
     
  20. Fish Man

    Fish Man Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2010
    Messages:
    1,077
    I had to play the start a few times to really find out what the best way to proceed was. Was in the mood for an "easy" deity game but this proved anything but.

    Spoiler :

    I found out a few things that worked about the third time around:

    1. Expand, into the jungle, right into Saladin's face! Settle cities until you're barely making money at 0%. Deliberately crashing your economy is not fun but it's the only surefire way to beat a deity AI to the important food spots here. It's OK if you miss one but the more you leave to the AI, the stronger they'll be. Besides general land though the important part about aggressive forward-settling is that come construction, you will need 4-5 whip farms to pump out units ASAP. It does you no good to reach catapult tech, only to 3 cities that can reliably crack the whip, while the AI has expanded to 9 or 10. The other part of this is that the earlier you settle spots, the faster they can get granaries/lighthouses/barracks up and tiles improved. Again, WHEN you reach construction, you MUST have 4-5 cities at a decent size with the necessary infrastructure to create an army. You can't really whip anything out of a place settled 5 turns ago that's yet to get granary or workboat up, for quite some time. Additionally, the closer you can settle to Saladin's core, the faster you'll be able to reach it once the war starts, to bring the conflict to a decisive resolution. If it's a 10 turn walk to the capital, a lot can happen in that time. The AI can build 15 units, or peacevassal to someone, or get longlows. Finally, if you deny Sally phants, you can not have to worry about facing them, and also you have an extra ivory to trade for 2 happy resources (since AIs value ivory almost as much as iron). So, settle settle settle! My preferred spots can be seen in the saves I attached, and I placed cities there overwhelmingly because there was food there. Food is truly king on this map, jungle or no.

    2. No detours. Time is of the essence. Streamline your tech path so that you bulb math at the earliest possible date. Besides obvious reasons, you need to trade for IW, to take your economy to a place where it can reach construction in a reasonable amount of time. If you get math too late and everyone has it...well, you best start praying. My tech order was agri -> AH -> mining -> BW -> pottery -> writing -> HBR. Bank gold once you get writing so you can research with full library bonuses everywhere. And get libraries up ASAP for the aforementioned GS. Don't even put beakers into alpha to trade for that, until after you get construction. I attacked 50BC, when he already had longbows, but non-hill LBS were no problem for elepults.

    3. Get the right build order. I went WB first because there simply wouldn't have enough to do with a worker in the beginning. So...WB -> worker -> warrior -> 3x settler for me! Once I improved the horse, corn, clam, and pig, I was building settlers at 7 turns MAX, and that was before I started cracking the whip. You need to find a way to make use of the overabundance of food as fast as possible.

    4. Hope and pray. Luck plays a factor too here. Mao can start plotting on you early on and it's game. The most important thing, of course, is Saladin's tech choices. Him getting feudalism earlier here is actually a GOOD thing, believe it or not. This is because if he gets it and at least ONE other AI gets it (highly likely), then you can trade feuda for philo (that you've hopefully bulbed) to be able to cap him. And, more importantly, it's engineering you should be worried about. Pro fast castles + pikes means DEATH for your rush, and I mean that in the most absolute terms. Pikes alone can shred both your phants and your pults, in the field even - meaning your stack will never be safe. Pro crossbows are almost like regular longbows (+CG2, -25% defense, math checks out) except also unassailable by melee units. So if he gets engineering you're basically screwed. Feudalism and "just" regular longbows are much better to face, and I know it's weird to be GRATEFUL for facing pro longbows with a catapult rush, but this is a situation of just hoping for the best outcome out of many bad ones.

    With some luck and skill you can end up about in this position after a successful rush:
    Spoiler :

    20190710002757_1.jpg
    20190710002901_1.jpg


    Not too behind in tech, beaker rate is impressively alright especially with a recent academy in the juicy Mecca, Willem's probably going to get lib but it's not like that's exceedingly early, him and Wang hate each other, Mao is somewhat behind, and Charlie got some of the land close to Wang so no AI is TOO big (though it's low sea level, which I increasingly regard as the most evil deity option, so of course they're gonna have a lot of land).

     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2019 at 4:52 AM

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