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Persia

Discussion in 'Leader Balance' started by Funak, Oct 18, 2014.

  1. Bromar1

    Bromar1 King

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    Ideally you wouldn't want to ever have to do this but sometimes locking down a key chokepoint can be a game changer. And I've never done that more than once per game.
    But the bottom line is that some early game neighbors like Persia, Songhai, Greece, etc will make it impossible to have your cake and eat it too.
    Sometimes you have to just respect the sheer early game pressure these civs can dish out, especially if with authority.
    Pyramids can also help set up a strong early border, and God of All Creation can give you enough early game to survive
     
  2. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Just noting that sometimes, that's how the cookie crumbles. We may go into a game with a plan, but that plan has to adapt to the map conditions. Now you are not required to adapt, its just a game after all and you can always start a new game, no harm no foul. But that doesn't mean there are any balance issues. The AI is quite competent now, at higher difficulties you have to adapt sometimes.
     
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  3. randomnub

    randomnub Prince

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    I don't have any experience with Persia as AI opponent with the latest patches so maybe they're still performing well and I'm overreacting, but it looks like Darius got shafted by many recent changes. Immortals lost CS and can't really hold buffed swordmen, while thanks to the lower overall population and increased food consumption by specialists the UB doesn't net many bonus yields anymore. Their biggest UA advantage, +1 move to everything, is less overwhelming now due to ranged ships not benefitting by it much if they can't hit & run. GAs are generally harder to obtain as well.

    Persia is still a solid civ and the early UU can carry the first 75-100 turns, but maybe the UB could use a scaling buff (+2 gold to specialists, +1g/gap every 3 or 4 citizens?).
     
  4. cerk

    cerk Chieftain

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    Immortals are still plenty amazing at taking down Rome with legions. I managed to get a religion with zealotry and pumped out some 10 immortals with cover 2 just before gunpowder. And with chichen itza in my capital they were mechanised infantry from pretty much renaissance onwards.

    And this was before recent boosts to late game buildings like stock exchange.
     
  5. randomnub

    randomnub Prince

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    CS 12 vs 17 when it used to be 13 vs 16, now they get butchered except if you're on the defensive sure but even in an attrition war pilum should give them an edge. CI, while an obvious wonder target, actually gives diminishing returns to Persia compared to other civs and I wouldn't mind getting rid of the 50% bonus GA lenght in their kit (so that CI, monopolies, Tradition and GAP could be worth more) in exchange for something else but not the point.
     
  6. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I think Persia is one of those civs that really needs to ride an early aggressive wave to victory. You go Authority, get those early Immortals, tribute every CS in sight, and then conquer your neighbors.

    One recent improvement that helps the immortal is the new City Assault Promotion. Its easy to get Immortals to that promotion from your early warring, and once they have that promotion they can do a decent job taking cities. The key is patience and using medics. If you get a rotation going, your Immortals heal up very quickly and go right back into the fray. From there, the fact that the double heal last through promotion is a huge benefit once you have Tercios. As pikeman, they are ok, but with Tercio you can really do well with double healing.

    I don't think Persia is top tier but they are solid and fun (one of my go to civs when I warmonger).
     
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  7. HungryForFood

    HungryForFood Prince

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    Something I discovered while modding: Satraps Court is not buildable in puppets. Should this be the case? Given that the description says buildable in all cities after all.
     
  8. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    Persia can be overwhelming if you're not used to them, particularly because that movement bonus means units that you thought were safe/defensive can just dissapear.

    That said, once I payed more attention to their UA and was very wary of them in the early-game (when they have the strongest advantage) I find them challenging but relatively well balanced :).

    I remember a game where Persia was losing against Arabia (who was ahead on techs and had their UU out), so I helped them out be eviscerating the Arabian forces. I went a bit too far though, because next thing I knew they had captured several Abarian cities and were a bigger threat to me than Arabia ever was lol (I was nieghbours with both). I think those courthouses help them consolidate their conquests.
     
  9. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    I’ve always considered Persia more of a modern era threat.

    you can faith buy GAs and can chain GAs for a proper conquer spree at that point. You can adopt the Autocracy tenet for 4:c5happy: on each satrap, so they can ignore happiness at that point and just go nuts

    I find their early game gets a bit bogged down. Satraps are functionally an extra few 100:c5production: That other civs simply don’t have to spend in their cities.
     
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  10. HungryForFood

    HungryForFood Prince

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    Disregard my post, Satrap's Courts are buildable in puppets after all...
     
  11. amateurgamer88

    amateurgamer88 Emperor

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    What are people's thoughts on the Satrap's? They feel fairly weak in what they provide. The scaling of :c5gold: Gold and :c5goldenage: GAP is pathetic now that growth has been slowed down. The extra gold is barely noticeable unless you play Tradition and go very specialist heavy which seems to only favor tall play. Even the base yield of 1 :c5gold: Gold and 1 :c5happy: Happiness is pretty average and makes you wonder if the UB is worth building.
     
  12. lunker

    lunker Warlord

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    I agree it's pretty rubbish but I think the main attraction is that it's maintenance free as opposed to regular courthouses. I've been really interested in making Tradition Persia work so I'd like to see stronger pop scalings on the building.
     
  13. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    The trick to remember is that for non-conquered city, Satrap's is not a building upgrade, its an entire extra building that no one else gets. Its not the most amazing UB in the world but its decent enough, as Persia has a solid UA and UU.
     
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  14. amateurgamer88

    amateurgamer88 Emperor

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    For a UB that isn't for non-conquered city, that sounds totally useless. I agree that UU is solid but the UA is average at best. The longer GA is certainly great but the extra movement and little bit of combat bonus are too inconsistent to play a major role. I'm sure we can all agree that warmonger generally want to start warring early and not until late game when GA actually lasts indefinitely.
     
  15. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    Their UA seems pretty good to me, at least playing against them. Persia seems strongest early on to me actually, they aren't as good once their UU isn't as relevant. So golden ages happening more often in later eras seems like a good way to balance that?

    Totally useless is a total hyperbole. The point is it gives you benefits in cities where you would be building a courthouse anyway, and it allows you to increase your income and golden-age points in your other cities as well (for relatively little investment). Each on it's own isn't particularly significant, but the net effect is. Particularly if you have a lot of captured cities.

    Granted it's not as dramatic as other UB's, and I would be happy to see it focused more on one area for the sake of being more fun in the sense of being able to feel the impact it has. Practically speaking though it's far from useless. Particularly given Persia's UA. Getting those golden ages more often matters.
     
  16. LifeOfBrian

    LifeOfBrian King

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    Persia has one of the best UUs in the game that makes warmongering significantly easier throughout the game. You need to spam lots of Immortals, they're very hard to kill and they can be quickly replaced (including by delaying Gunpowder as long as reasonably possible and building Immortals with Barracks, Armories & preferably Orders, then immediately upgrading) . With the new city assault promotion being available after drill II, they're tremendous at city siege, either on their own or as damage buffers while your ranged&siege units do the attacking. I'm intentionally avoiding playing as Persia because Immortals are so strong in human hands against all but the best early game AIs.

    As the 2nd tree you should pick Artistry which will give you more Golden ages and further help your warmongering.

    So Satrap court being below average shouldn't be a problem. And still it helps you get faster Golden ages and it helps you build infrastructure in your core cities once you've taken Imperialism as your 3rd tree.
     
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  17. amateurgamer88

    amateurgamer88 Emperor

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    I don't know when you get more consistent Golden Ages but it's several eras after the UU becomes irrelevant. That's a long time to not get any benefits and not a good balance in my opinion.

    Meanwhile, you are right that getting more golden ages is more important. However, what gives Persia the ability to gain more golden ages? Immortals don't give give GAP on kills. The 10% of your net gold income isn't even that much and that amount will be more irrelevant heading into the late game when the GAP needed for a golden age is more costly. The UB gives some GAP and its scalar is pretty awful. Let's not forget that you are building them in your captured cities which increases your tech and policy costs when you annex them. If they stay puppets, your yields are pretty negligible even if those cities are massive. Maybe I'm being dramatic with useless but the cons do far outweigh the pros.

    I'm not denying that Immortals are powerful but I honestly would pick Hoplites or Pictish Warriors over them for wars due to how much more effective they are at war. Immortals are more defensive than offensive which means that you don't want them to be killed to really benefit from them surviving with lots of promotions. Compared to the civs that get Hoplites and Pictish Warriors, the Persian UB and UA seem quite a bit worse off and not providing as much benefits.
     
  18. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    You still have to spend hammers on the Satrap's Court if you build them in your own cities and the Gold is hardly worth the Hammers. It's really just a couple of GAP and a point of Happiness. It's not a great UB for your own cities, unless you have Courthouse buffs from Imperialism/Autocracy (but that's really late).

    Its main value is that annexing cities is a free investment into a Satrap's, so you get a little extra in your conquered cities.

    I do think Immortals are great, and they carry on good promotions as well, unlike Hoplites. The UA is a little hit or miss depending on if you can get stuff like Hero Worship early on, but it's solid.
     
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  19. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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  20. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    The double healing lasts on upgrade. Its never worthless. In fact, I think Persia gets a solid boost in power when you get Tercio and Fusiliers, as the double heal comes in quite handy when you have picked up things like march combined with those strong melee units.
     
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