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Persia

Discussion in 'Leader Balance' started by Funak, Sep 12, 2015.

  1. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    First of all I'm going to list the uniques and stats of Persia and then I'm going to tell you what I dislike about the current version.

    UU - Immortal
    Replacement spearman
    +1 CS and double heal promotion compared to normal spearmen.


    This unit is fine, really, it isn't mind-blowing or anything and it got a lot worse with the healing-penalties added to CPP. But it is fine, keep the unit upgraded and you'll have meatshields that recover faster.

    EDIT: Turns out this isn't a lot worse with the healing penalties, since it doesn't actually double your healing as marketed, it increases your healing by 15 (or 10 can't remember) per turn. Pretty misleading however.

    UB - Satrap's Court
    Replacement courthouse
    Builable in all cities.
    + Merchant
    +1 gold +1 gold/5 citizen
    +1 happiness
    +5% GA duration.


    I'm not going to lie to you, this building is pretty great considering it pretty much replaces nothing, meaning all it's effects are things that other civs won't have access to.
    No, my problem with this building doesn't lie in its power at all, but more in the fact that it gives you +% GA duration an effect that normally (for a good reason) isn't included in buildings, mostly because it scales horribly with mapsize. the difference between a duel man where you can fit 3 (being generous) cities and a huge map (or just communitas) where you can fit 33 cities (at least) is a whopping 150% GA duration, translating to 15 extra turns of golden age on standard speed from a great artist.
    Yes I'm aware that expanding and building more cities is supposed to be the norm, and I don't question that at all, ofc building more cities should give you an advantage. But with this building is just extremely poorly balanced between mapsizes and maptypes. There are a few other ones working like this, mostly the Roman extra gold from city-connections per building thing (that really isn't a good idea either), and while it doesn't directly break the game I just don't see a reason to keep it like this.
    I mean Persia already have a big bonus to GA-duration in their UA, no real need to keep loading them up with even more GA duration.

    My suggestion would be scrapping the GA duration on the buildings and replacing it with some way of earning GAP, possibly just a basic per turn thing. I would personally love something that actually stays relevant as eras advances but that seem kinda unlikely.

    I would also like to go back to my initial point about how conquering civs could keep the Satrap's court in the city (not-razing mechanic) to symbolize how they were actually really effective ways of governance that was kept in place when the persian cities fell to invaders. Just a little bit of flavor kinda like the extra gold from plundering Egyptian burial tombs.


    UA - Achaemenid Legacy
    +50% GA duration
    +25% CS and +1 Movement during golden ages


    My complaint here is the same as always, I really don't like the combat focus of this UA. Persia did stuff other than just beating people up all the time.
    CEP had golden ages giving Persia extra culture, but I don't think that's a good solution either.




    Final note: I really don't like Firaxis choice of leader here, there are a lot of cooler Persian leader than Darius.
     
  2. Apostremo

    Apostremo Chieftain

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    Crazy interest here :D I don't have to say much myself, though.

    I agree with map size scaling; Maybe limit GA bonus from satrap's to 30 cities? That would mean +150% GA duration +50% from the UA, 300% GA duration for Persia at max.
    Could alternatively imagine something like +1:c5goldenage: per 10 :c5citizen: (and drop the happiness?), but again could be a mess to balance with map size.

    Actually i like the UA in theory at least. 3 tiles per turn is one of the funniest things to have in game. In practice i never played persia in 4 years and rerolled every time, because they had always a boring wipe for me :D
    When i think Xerxes and immortals, there is some aggressive expansion wipe in persia, so I'm okay with the focus. But wouldn't mind something interesting added.
     
  3. CunningGabe

    CunningGabe Chieftain

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    I don't generally like warring in Civ, but Persia's UA tempts me a lot. +1 movement is a really interesting bonus.

    Good point about the Satrap's Courts. I think GAP per turn would be a sensible replacement for the +5% GA length. Scaling with population would be nice (+1 GAP per turn per 5 citizens?), but I guess that is probably more difficult to code, since nothing works like that currently.
     
  4. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Does science and gold normally scale by map size? Wouldn't anything that provides those bonuses have mapscale issues?
     
  5. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    Science cost grows with every settled city, gold usually goes out of control on bigger maps, I think the idea behind it is that a bigger empire requires more army-units to cover its borders, but it doesn't really work like that.
     
  6. Strigvir

    Strigvir Chieftain

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    Bigger empires suffer from building maintenance costs.
     
  7. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Forgot to post in changelog that Satrap's Court is now 1 GAP per 5 citizens. Added it to changelog.

    G
     
  8. Senteliks

    Senteliks Chieftain

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    Edit: Wrong thread
     
  9. mavol6

    mavol6 Chieftain

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    sorry for bringing up an ancient thread, but what do you think of persia current position? i like how the bonuses have alot of potential in the late game, but they lack the early traction which is strange considering their bonuses come into play during the classical era. I feel like their unique building could use a buff, something that should incetive to build them in your settled cities as most of the times i feel like im wasting production on them (the building pays for itself at 5 pop, while i would only gain 2 GAP per turn and 1 happiness), its not all that bad though especially considering 1 happiness is strong early game (and it still is on late game) and it builds on puppeted cities.

    i think it would be nice to see their production and maintenance cost reduced, or maybe the city would gain gold and/or GAP each time you kill a unit or capture a city.
     
  10. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    Why are you sorry? That's exactly the right move to make.
     
  11. randomnub

    randomnub Chieftain

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    I wanted to necro this thread as well, Persia always been a favourite of mine even in vanilla and can't explain why exactly. It must be the leader beard, or the IMMORTAL unit name...

    Honestly they're damn strong in my experience, as an AI and as a player, and I think the fact nobody posted much about them is because they are quite versatile, can survive early and push easily later. They can probably make good use of all 3 starting branches but it takes some willpower not to go authority with a spearman UU.

    I randomed them pre-patch and attempted to mix a bit tradition and authority but results were quite bad. These are turn63 deity screenshots taken after a successful defense against Ashurbanipal early rush (2 immortals against ~8 warriors+archers when he attacked, he never had a chance): persia63.png

    persiab63.png

    Let just say mixing trees didn't leave me in a very strong position where going full authority made for some great snowballing. The science from the 4th policy in Authority makes a hell of a difference, from ''researching calendar'' to ''pyramids built'' at same turn/following same tech path. Tribute from mercantile CS ftw.

    Assyria is doomed in both situations (back then I took the screenshot to show some dumb AI moving the archer and the siege tower out of city...) thanks to Immortals healing 15pts even in enemy territory, they're great at siege and really hard to lose them even to horses/swordmen.

    persiab118.png

    Where I stopped before latest patch hit. Immortals give you an edge for the whole classical and then you build up with the UB leading to renaissance wars where your whole army is made of +1mv+10%cs UUs pretty much.

    The Satrap's Court is strong when you can build it in great number thanks to some successful classical expansion, definitely not a top tier UB but the rest of the kit is powerful enough imo.
     
  12. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    I like Persia a lot. Immortals are awesome. I have had a ton of success with an Authority tradition split using the civ, I could share thoughts if people are interested

    The only thing I find underwhelming is Satrap's Court
     
  13. randomnub

    randomnub Chieftain

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    How do you split btw? Because science sources come quite late.
     
  14. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    Science will be weak but culture should be really strong. You can pick 4 policies that provide culture in a row if you choose to (5 if you counted Imperium but I don't). Try Aztec first as I find it works better for him

    Open Authority
    Tribute
    (dominance?)

    Open Tradition
    Artist
    (dominance?)
    Engineer
    Scientist
    Writer
    Merchant (completing tradition)

    The basic theory is that the first 3 policies in authority are awesome and the bottom of the tree isn't great. Tribute + the artist policy is a great combo. Only take dominance if you are killing a lot of stuff as otherwise its better to get into tradition. Imperium is a good policy but in my experience its better to start on tradition. Tradition's big weakness has always been no hammers in secondary cities, but with this approach you get a bonus 3.

    You will miss Hanging Gardens if you take dominance which stinks. It is possible to build though, especially with Oracle. I usually wait to build settlers to help get that science and culture high. You should be able to take any cities which get settled in your lands. Be warned I haven't used it this patch
     
  15. randomnub

    randomnub Chieftain

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    Look at my first screen, that's exactly following the path you described, I am at 4th policy (got some culture from tributes, cleared 2 camps and killed ~10-12 assyrian units). I had no culture/science sources next to capital tho (copper monopoly), it would have been a different story with some militaristic CS I suppose. I was waiting for Imperium to settle, but It turned out I couldn't get it before the conquest of Assur either, quite lame missing those yelds.

    Full Authority lead to those 3 cities + 3 settlers and way better position in the second screen.
     
  16. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    Hard to balance out the Satrap's court, I mean it's a building that you can't normally build with other civs, so every yield it provides is a yield on top. But on the other hand you still need to invest hammers into building it.
    Imho the Satrap's Court isn't great, but it's definitely middle of the pack when it comes to unique buildings.

    What I really dislike about Persia is the war-focus of the UA. I just felt like that could have been handled better.
     
  17. Enginseer

    Enginseer Salientia of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Except Persia historically has a tendency to make Persia great again and the UA handles it the best imo.
     
  18. randomnub

    randomnub Chieftain

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    To differentiate it a bit from vanilla and give it less war focus, one of the two GA boni (the 'boring' +15% CS?) could be substituted by a minor no-warlike bonus, such as science or growth.

    It's not broken anyway, so no urgency to fix it.
     
  19. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    4 social policies is a lot to have by turn 63. You are about to slow down and you want to be patient while your culture stalls for a bit. Its a slow strategy, and its supposed to be slow. The tradition opener is much weaker than Imperium or Dominance, if you want to be strong during the 4th social take full authority. However if you push that weakness I think you will be very happy with how quickly you grow once you reach the artist policy (which dramatically increases how fast borders grow). After having that in play for a few turns you should notice the extra food and gold.

    Another thing to try is taking the tradition opener, especially if you get your first social really early (say culture ruins or something). This can make sense since often you will reach your second social (which can be the Authority opener) before you kill any units or clear camps.

    PS- what was the pantheon?
     
  20. randomnub

    randomnub Chieftain

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    I had the artist policy (A opener - just in time to kill two barbarians and a camp close, T opener shortly after, artist, tribute was the order afak), and the pantheon was the Expanse one. Notice I had 4 policies in both screenshots.

    The second time Brazil got Expanse, and I went for the faith on mines one aiming at conquering an holy city instead: third screenshot shows the plan was working, and with such strong early UU I feel I dont' want to delay Imperium too much, the snowball is real.

    That being said I still am sure progress or tradition or a mix of of trees can work with Persia, it's a strong civ and not pidgeholed to a single strategy, but I wanted to show the difference between those two approaches.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2017

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