Petition To Put Martin Luther in the Game As a Playable Leader

[Albertan Civfanatic]

I am all for putting Martin Luther in the game as a playable leader. Since the devs have relaxed the qualifications for being a leader away from strict adherence to a political or military background, it seems that Luther would be a perfect fit. He was the driving force behind the Reformation, played a crucial role in developing the modern German language and identity and did not directly function as a war leader/war monger. In my mind, if we are strictly speaking of Civ 7 here, Luther is to Germany as Ben Franklin is to America: not a political leader but a crucial cultural figure indeed. Luther's relevance wasn't just to Saxony, but indeed for most if not all of Germany and the entire Protestant world.

Moderator Action: Edited title. Cheers -lymond

 

[Ornen]

good candidate for when they flesh out religion a bit more

 

[TheSpaceCowboy]

Martin Luther was one of the most consequential men of the second Millennium. His inclusion is long overdue.
The Protestant Reformation was not an inevitable consequences of historical forces, as evidenced by the fact of the Catholic Church’s unity and continuity in the centuries since the Reformation, as well as the lack of a similar reformation and split in Eastern Orthodoxy.
Luther was the very emblem of Carlyle’s “Great Man Theory”, and he single-handedly changed European history and culture.
We can trace back to him modern notions such as Separation of Church and State (via his “Doctrine of Two Kingdoms”) and even Secularism (via his renewed focus on family, marriage, and secular vocations as equally valuable and God-pleasing as religious vocations).

 

[Albertan Civfanatic]

Martin Luther was one of the most consequential men of the second Millennium. His inclusion is long overdue.
The Protestant Reformation was not an inevitable consequences of historical forces, as evidenced by the fact of the Catholic Church’s unity and continuity in the centuries since the Reformation, as well as the lack of a similar reformation and split in Eastern Orthodoxy.
Luther was the very emblem of Carlyle’s “Great Man Theory”, and he single-handedly changed European history and culture.
We can trace back to him modern notions such as Separation of Church and State (via his “Doctrine of Two Kingdoms”) and a even Secularism (via his renewed focus on family, marriage, and secular vocations as equally valuable and God-pleasing as religious vocations).

Martin Luther was one of the most consequential men of the second Millennium. His inclusion is long overdue.
The Protestant Reformation was not an inevitable consequences of historical forces, as evidenced by the fact of the Catholic Church’s unity and continuity in the centuries since the Reformation, as well as the lack of a similar reformation and split in Eastern Orthodoxy.
Luther was the very emblem of Carlyle’s “Great Man Theory”, and he single-handedly changed European history and culture.
We can trace back to him modern notions such as Separation of Church and State (via his “Doctrine of Two Kingdoms”) and a even Secularism (via his renewed focus on family, marriage, and secular vocations as equally valuable and God-pleasing as religious vocations).

Beautifully stated. And I think religion in 7 needs a massive re work, but I'm at least happy that it is in the base game. I would rather that they give us what we have now and improve it later than simply have a carbon copy of 6' religion mechanics.

 

[Albertan Civfanatic]

 

[Zaarin]

The Protestant Reformation was not an inevitable consequences of historical forces, as evidenced by the fact of the Catholic Church’s unity and continuity in the centuries since the Reformation, as well as the lack of a similar reformation and split in Eastern Orthodoxy.
Luther was the very emblem of Carlyle’s “Great Man Theory”, and he single-handedly changed European history and culture.

Have to disagree with this part. Hus expressed similar ideas a century earlier, but they didn't catch on because it was the wrong moment. Luther expressed what a lot of people were thinking at the moment, not just fellow separatists like Zwingli but also those who remained loyal to the Catholic Church like Erasmus and Pole (the Counter-Reformation was inspired by the same sources as the Reformation--ad fontes predates Luther by nearly a century). One scholar called the Reformation a debate in the mind of St. Augustine: Protestants endorsing Augustine's soteriology, Catholics his ecclesiology.

I'm not discounting Luther's work or significance, but if you eliminate Luther, you still get the Protestant Reformation...possibly with a more diplomatic, less irascible leader who didn't view all of his fellow reformers as personal nemeses. (The same happened on the other side. Cardinal Pole was sympathetic to the Reformation and might have found a compromise with the Protestants, other than Luther, had he been elected pope.) Also, Luther didn't single-handedly change European history; there were hundreds of other reformers and hundreds of thousands of their followers. Without them, there would have been no Reformation. Again, without Luther, you still get the Protestant Reformation; he was just a fiery, intelligent, belligerent center point for a tide that was already incoming and had already begun to simmer in places like Switzerland, Italy, and the Netherlands. (We don't usually associate Italy with Protestantism because Italian Protestants were largely forced to emigrate or recant, but both Renaissance humanists and the Oratory of Divine Love were important forebears of the Reformation.)

That being said, Luther would be a very fun leader, though his dialogue would break the E10+ age rating. Still, if they put the effort in, his boisterous irascibility and petulance would make for a great presence in the diplomacy screen.

even Secularism (via his renewed focus on family, marriage, and secular vocations as equally valuable and God-pleasing as religious vocations).

Not just by that. The Protestant Reformation directly led to secularization as the Western Christian world fragmented, leading to the privatization of religion and increasing public focus on commerce in its place. This happened in Catholic as well as Protestant countries as both sides had to accept that religious pluralism was preferable to endless religious warfare like the Thirty Years' War and the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre (somehow Catherine de Medici returned).

 

[Krikkit1]

Have to disagree with this part. Hus expressed similar ideas a century earlier, but they didn't catch on because it was the wrong moment. Luther expressed what a lot of people were thinking at the moment, not just fellow separatists like Zwingli but also those who remained loyal to the Catholic Church like Erasmus and Pole (the Counter-Reformation was inspired by the same sources as the Reformation--ad fontes predates Luther by nearly a century). One scholar called the Reformation a debate in the mind of St. Augustine: Protestants endorsing Augustine's soteriology, Catholics his ecclesiology.

I'm not discounting Luther's work or significance, but if you eliminate Luther, you still get the Protestant Reformation...possibly with a more diplomatic, less irascible leader who didn't view all of his fellow reformers as personal nemeses. (The same happened on the other side. Cardinal Pole was sympathetic to the Reformation and might have found a compromise with the Protestants, other than Luther, had he been elected pope.) Also, Luther didn't single-handedly change European history; there were hundreds of other reformers and hundreds of thousands of their followers. Without them, there would have been no Reformation. Again, without Luther, you still get the Protestant Reformation; he was just a fiery, intelligent, belligerent center point for a tide that was already incoming and had already begun to simmer in places like Switzerland, Italy, and the Netherlands. (We don't usually associate Italy with Protestantism because Italian Protestants were largely forced to emigrate or recant, but both Renaissance humanists and the Oratory of Divine Love were important forebears of the Reformation.)

That being said, Luther would be a very fun leader, though his dialogue would break the E10+ age rating. Still, if they put the effort in, his boisterous irascibility and petulance would make for a great presence in the diplomacy screen.


Not just by that. The Protestant Reformation directly led to secularization as the Western Christian world fragmented, leading to the privatization of religion and increasing public focus on commerce in its place. This happened in Catholic as well as Protestant countries as both sides had to accept that religious pluralism was preferable to endless religious warfare like the Thirty Years' War and the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre (somehow Catherine de Medici returned).

To sum up, putting in Luther because he caused the Reformation is (almost) like putting in Gavrilo Princip because he caused WWI.

(seriously his role in the Reformation is important but not irreplaceable)

 

[The_goggles_do_nothing]

If there is a re-work of Religion where there are appropriate abilities in all three ages would be the time for a Martin Luther. You could pair him with Akhenaten or someone else know for religious reasons.

 

[TheSpaceCowboy]

To sum up, putting in Luther because he caused the Reformation is (almost) like putting in Gavrilo Princip because he caused WWI.

(seriously his role in the Reformation is important but not irreplaceable)

That’s not an accurate comparison.
Luther did much more than merely nail the 95 Theses to the church door at Wittenberg and then *boom*, the forces of history bring about the Reformation.
His particular theological contributions and his character gave shape to it in the form that we know.
A Reformation or conciliar movement without Luther might’ve addressed corruption such as Simony and Nepotism, as eventually happened with the counter-Reformation.
But Luther’s emphasis on freedom of conscience as expressed in his address to the Diet of Worms made the Protestant Reformation a much more fundamental challenge to the ecclesiology underlying Roman Catholicism.
The immediate effect was the erosion of papal authority over huge swaths of Christendom.
The long term effect from which we benefit today was the fuller articulation of freedom of conscience as seen in places like the First Amendment.

“Unless I am convinced by the testimony of the Scriptures or by clear reason (for I do not trust either in the pope or in councils alone, since it is well known that they have often erred and contradicted themselves), I am bound by the Scriptures I have quoted and my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and will not recant anything, since it is neither safe nor right to go against conscience. Here I stand; I can do no other. God help me. Amen.”

-Martin Luther, 1521
These are words which have echoed down the centuries and continue to shape our daily lives to the present day.

 

[Nic@Melbourne]

Fine option but the American and French rosters are full

 

[Vandlys]

Fine option but the American and French rosters are full

Why would he be a leader for America or France?

 

[Krikkit1]

That’s not an accurate comparison.
Luther did much more than merely nail the 95 Theses to the church door at Wittenberg and then *boom*, the forces of history bring about the Reformation.
His particular theological contributions and his character gave shape to it in the form that we know.
A Reformation or conciliar movement without Luther might’ve addressed corruption such as Simony and Nepotism, as eventually happened with the counter-Reformation.
But Luther’s emphasis on freedom of conscience as expressed in his address to the Diet of Worms made the Protestant Reformation a much more fundamental challenge to the ecclesiology underlying Roman Catholicism.
The immediate effect was the erosion of papal authority over huge swaths of Christendom.
The long term effect from which we benefit today was the fuller articulation of freedom of conscience as seen in places like the First Amendment.


-Martin Luther, 1521
These are words which have echoed down the centuries and continue to shape our daily lives to the present day.

The idea that other reformers would have not eventually resulted in breaking with papal authority neglects the other factors.

Luther did give the Reformation a particular direction, but it was only because a lot of other people (powerful and otherwise) were ready to be convinced.

If there’s no Luther, then maybe that doesn’t happen until the 1600s or the Revolutions (Glorious, American, French, Latin American) maybe more nations go the initial way of England and just say the king is head of the church but it’s still the same theologically, etc.

He definitely shaped it (intentionally unlike GP and WWI) but he was not necessary for it.

 

[Uberfrog]

I am very much in favour of a cantankerous Protestant reformer as a leader concept.

Calvin and Hus also make a lot of sense with the new model of separate leaders.

We could even have John Knox, who would be a shouty pantomime villain whose agenda would presumably be that he just hates female leaders.

 

[Maniac]

If he is the head of a monarchy, what will we call him?

 

[Siptah]

If he is the head of a monarchy, what will we call him?

same as Ben Franklin & José Rizal?

 

[Maniac]

Ben Frankling & José Royal?

 

[Siptah]

Ben Frankling & José Royal?

It's also possible to have Marking Luther. No need for MLK.

 

[Hellenism Salesman]

I would really love if he wrote (and delivered) a full 95 theses when he denounces you. The text box has a scroll bar so you can read them all.

Edit: This could actually be translated into an ability- gain a Codice every time another player founds a Pantheon or Religion (I am aware Codices cease to exist in the Exploration Age). You could tone it down to only happen a certain number of times (say, 2 or 3), but it's so incredibly flavorful I would hate to not see it included. The very moment a new creed is written, Luther puts pen to paper and passionately creates his own critique of it.

If this all feels a little tonge-in-cheek, it is. I was raised Lutheran so I have the knowledge (and the right) to poke fun at this guy

 

[Zaarin]

Martin Luther did not set out to break from the Catholic Church, and when it became clear that a break with the Catholic Church was unavoidable, he did not set out to create freedom of religion, either. He set out to create a new catholic church around his own beliefs. The shattering of Western Christendom, religious pluralism, and ultimately secularism were outcomes none except the most radical of the reformers intended.

 

[leif erikson]

Moderator Action: Martin Luther King, Jr. is not a part of the discussion in this thread. Please stay on topic.