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Petra on Deity

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by KingKong76, Apr 2, 2016.

  1. KingKong76

    KingKong76 Warlord

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    Is it realistc to build Pertr on Diety, and if so what would be you tech and Policy path to achive it?

    I got a few VERY intersting petra start or for second city on Deity lately and I always fell short by at least 5 tuns... and there is nothig worst than aiming for petra and missing it.

    Ibasicaly had to rerol another start snce Im not good enough yet to survive a catastrophe on deity.
     
  2. danaphanous

    danaphanous religious fanatic

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    Not usually realistic but I might sometimes go for it with an engineer. I've gotten it before on immortal hard-building but never on Deity, but if you get lucky having the sole good city near desert it will be built a lot later giving you more time.

    I've heard stories of people getting it on Deity but I'd personally never count on it unless I could see I had the only productive city near desert or had a great engineer ready. It's not worth sinking too many turns into due to the risk. I'm thinking specifically that Babylon could maybe do it. A fast NC and early planted academy + peaceful neighbors and 2 scientific trade routes and you might manage tech parity by mid-classical fast enough to pull it off, especially if your start was desert bias as Babylon often has and could build it in the capital or 2nd city.

    Alternatively, you can go the great engineer route with liberty finisher. If you finish liberty fast (Poland or fast culture game) you might get a great engineer from liberty before the AI finish petra and hurry it. Requires a good pop city though as engineers now scale in power with the population of the city so plant the city you want it in early and grow it fast. Mayan long count also can give an early engineer but since you need theology first I'm thinking it'll be gone by the time you get theology then get Petra tech. Too much lost time.

    Moral of the story: on Deity don't do it if losing it will hurt you unless you've explored so aggressively you know you don't have decent competition. If any AI city can build it they probably will. It's one of their favorite wonders.
     
  3. KingKong76

    KingKong76 Warlord

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    ohhh good news... it means Im not as incompetent than I tought loll
     
  4. fyar

    fyar Prince

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    I disagree with danaphanous, I've had reasonable success going for Petra on Deity. But maybe because, like the OP, I re-roll if I don't get it. :) That may be biasing my perceived success rate. But if you begin with a desert start where Petra would be strong enough to almost ensure victory if you get it, I definitely think it's worth going for it. That means beelining currency as you have all your luxury techs, writing, and bronze working. Yes, ahead of philosophy... I will accept a delayed (slightly after turn 100, but not too long) NC if it means securing Petra, especially if you also get desert folklore. I estimate that when I do this, I get it more often than not.

    To be worth the risk, I would require probably at least 5 or 6 "premium" Petra tiles, which are tiles that were already workable even without Petra and then also get the bonus: oases, desert hills, maybe certain resources like stone or iron but probably not incense. You might need those desert hills even just to switch to production focus once you get currency.

    Perhaps most importantly if you're on a pangaea map, build at least two scouts so that you can find out how many of your opponents started in desert. Once you find them, check every now and then if you see an incomplete Petra having started. Then you know if it's better not to bother. If archipelago, get some triremes out early so that you can at least know which civs are a threat to steal Petra from you. If continents, there's no way to be sure but you might as well still build enough scouts to see if your neighbors are building it.
     
  5. danaphanous

    danaphanous religious fanatic

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    At least not more incompetent then me lol. ;) There are good players that might disagree but I think my advice is pretty good in general.

    I generally never wonder-race before medieval on Deity unless:

    1. It won't hurt me too much to lose it and I think I have a chance
    2. It's a wonder the AI doesn't build as quickly (like Pyramids) I get pyramids most of the time and sometimes oracle too.

    But I generally just don't worry about early wonders. Maybe I should try Petra more often but usually I don't get a desert-biased capital and the only opportunity is in some puny expo that has no chance. Also, the AI has a nasty habit of building it even if they only have 1-2 desert tiles just for the trade route so it's hard to get a game where they aren't claiming it very early in my experience. But it does happen.

    EDIT: ninja'd by fyar. Interesting input man, I could see how skipping NC could work here. I have to wonder if you make up the time, but as long as you win I guess it doesn't matter here, and petra is fun to get! :)
     
  6. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    I agree with Fyar. If you really want that early Petra you should be getting Caravans and Libraries out earlier than usual, because early game science is key for getting to your desired tech. in time. From my experience, if you start building Petra at around T45-T50 there is still a very realistic chance for you to get it.

    Try getting embassies everywhere and check if someone has a capital/first expo with desert near it. It does not matter if it is a good Petra city, the AI will build it even if the Caravan is the only benefit.

    If there is an AI capital with desert, don't give up! Bribing an AI into war will often make them stop wonder production.
     
  7. Redaxe

    Redaxe Emperor

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    I have had the occasional game where no-one has built it and I was able to get it in an expo past turn 100. It's rare but it happens.

    I think for Diety it generally comes too early to use with the Great Person from the Liberty finisher. That probably means you need to hardbuild it so I'd focus on settling expo's very early and then prioritising growth and science. Getting trade routes to other civs going for extra science is probably essential/
     
  8. Sclb

    Sclb Emperor

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    I've seen AI build Petra if they have only 1 desert tile under a mountain that isn't even workable.
     
  9. fyar

    fyar Prince

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    I definitely think it's worth delaying your NC for Petra. I think it's worth adding though that this strategy might favor domination strategies. I don't know if it's the best idea for a 4-city tradition peaceful victory, not just because you're delaying the NC and therefore your medieval science push, but also because I think of Petra mainly as a hammer investment into more hammers, usually from all the 4-hammer hills you'll be working. The trade route is nice, the food is nice but usually a wash with the fact that you might be working more hills which still only give 1 food (hills with fresh water for 3 food, 2 hammers are the best but seem to be rare), but usually my Petra city is a production behemoth. Production is good for wonder-whoring, but if you fell behind in science because you delayed your NC, that might not be possible until late Renaissance. So the best thing to use a production behemoth for is to build an army with which to kill somebody. My Petra games tend to be domination or domination-assisted victories.

    If you're waiting for your liberty GE to get Petra, I agree with Redaxe that it's not surprising that it's too late for you.
     
  10. KingKong76

    KingKong76 Warlord

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    thanks do the input... I might try it next time I get an amazing petra start.
     
  11. inthesomeday

    inthesomeday Immortan

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    Which do you all mostly prefer- 3 :c5food: 3 :c5production: 1 :c5faith: Petra desert farms, or 1 :c5food: 4 :c5production: 1 :c5faith: Petra desert mines? I usually go with the farms wherever possible.
     
  12. Ryika

    Ryika Lazy Wannabe Artista

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    Yeah, the AI doesn't understand how wonders work. If it's available a lot of AIs will try to build it because of its balanced mix of flavors that pushes it to high priority for many different leader personalities.
     
  13. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    Always food. If you wanted to be a micromanagement god you could turn them into mines in the late game anyway.
     
  14. SoonerJBD

    SoonerJBD Warlord

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    Petra is also fantastic for making luxury tiles even better. I had a start a few games ago with four gold hills in my second or third ring from my start position on a flood plain. Extra food and hammers lets you work those a bit earlier than if they had no food, especially if you send the caravan to an expo and have it being food back to the Capitol. I keep hoping for one of those crazy four salt desert starts where I can get Petra and just have the greatest city ever. Hills with sheep are also great when you add in stable shied bonus. It's my favorite wonder.
     
  15. Solutionfinder

    Solutionfinder Warlord

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    I think I have never hard built Petra on Deity. Only works with GE from Liberty if AI doesn`t have it near first two cities.

    I love oasis and sheep tiles, iron on hill is also just amazing. Blank tiles also turn to plains which is better than nothing. It is a great wonder but as already mentioned also AIs favourite wonder :)
     
  16. Sclb

    Sclb Emperor

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    Desert has 0 yield if it's flat. Petra turns it into 1 :c5food: 1 :c5production: only, and without fertilizer you will only get 2 :c5food: 1 :c5production:. Note that a flat river desert that isn't a floodplain is extremely rare, and Petra doesn't work for floodplains. I would much rather work all the mines and fresh water farms and use food trade/cargo to feed petra city. Trading 1 food for 3 hammer is very good trade.
     
  17. inthesomeday

    inthesomeday Immortan

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    I was referring specifically to Petra hills
     
  18. Sclb

    Sclb Emperor

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    Ok, then you're trading 2 food for 1 hammer which is usually the case that farm is better.
     
  19. Captain_Wozzeck

    Captain_Wozzeck Chieftain

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    So Petra is one of those wonders that the AI can build faster than is humanly possible if it wants to. If the AI starts in desert and wants to build Petra, you will find that it gets there at about turn 55 standard speed. Unfortunately it's basically impossible to build it within that time frame yourself.

    However, it is entirely possible that the AI chooses not to build it, or doesn't have desert terrain. In these circumstances you can indeed build it. I would recommend picking up any techs you need for luxuries and then going straight for currency. Pick up Aristocracy in Tradition too. You want to be finishing Petra around turn 70 to have a good shot. I've built Petra twice on Deity, and both times where when the terrain was so sublime that I was confident it would transform my game.

    As for your experience, there's not much you can do if the AI is finishing it before you. As I said, the AI will beat you to it by a matter of certainty if wants to, so I wouldn't agonize about your game play if you don't get it.
     
  20. enkryptor

    enkryptor Chieftain

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