Pharaohs

[Grishnash]

"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings. Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"

Egypt, the birth place of Civilization! Is in my opinion misrepresented in RFC, for starters, something that had always puzzled me was the Egyptians Unique Power
Why does it give Slavery? I mean, I understand the Hereditary Rule as representing the Pharaohs and Egypt's advanced ruling system back then, but what in the world does slavery have to do with it? Slaves were a minor part in Egypt's history.

Many archaeologists and engineers now believe that the pyramid builders were not slaves, as was previously thought, but paid laborers who took great pride in their task

That is about the Great Pyramids of Giza, the belief that it was built by slaves is illogical.
Another thing, the Egypt Empire span onto the middle-east where they set up fort, but in RFCs anytime I try to settle there one of two things happen; I fall into civil-war, or I lose the city(ies) in the near-east.
And then there is the technologies, Egypt is always left far behind, I mean, when the Greeks come, they are so far more advanced it's just ridiculous!
And then there's gold and barbarians plus natives. I cannot see how Egypt can fight off the War Elephants and Camel Archers without the Great Wall of Egypt, I mean no matter how hard I try, I cannot get pike-men, cause even if I had the tech I wouldn't have iron because there isn't any outside of south Africa and maybe Carthage. And the Natives are just crazy, axe men could handle them but then they will die from the barbarians and the Natives will destroy loosely guarded cities or ripped your lands apart. I don't know what historic thing this is trying to represent, for the only foe that was of any real threat to the Egyptians were the same people that destroyed them; the Persians.
Which, I might add, never do. The Persians never even make it to border the Egyptians let alone destroy them and the Greeks, it's unhistorical for one, and it means that the Egyptians always either get taken by the Barbarians or fall to Civil-War and never falls in the hand of the Persians or Greeks and rarely the Romans.

I know, Egypt has to fall, and It has to be hampered or else face the chance of becoming a superpower in most games, but still, I think it's a little too hindered.

""I am great Ozymandias, The King of Kings; this mighty City shows the wonders of my hand."

Another thing, this has nothing to do with the Egyptians but it beats making another thread.
An Idea for civil-wars could be that when a civilization falls into civil war, then any cities in another civilizations birth area flip to that civ, even if it doesn't live anymore, thus making a revival comeback for them. I.e. If I was Ethiopia and ruled the middle-east (Which I do more often then you'd think) and I fell into civil war (Which always happens when I rule the middle east ) all my cities in the Arabian Peninsula will flip to the Arabians, and since the Arabians were perviously killed off, they come back alive and, well, pretty much hate me
An Idea.

 

[BurnEmDown]

I agree about the slavery thing... Perhaps +20% production on wonders? That would be more historically correct with the volunteers and all, however that wouldn't fit well along with Hereditary Rule on the start, I think it's better to look at slavery as a representation of the volunteer work. By the way the builders were also tax-payers who couldn't afford to pay, it was like another method of paying to the government.

 

[blizzrd]

Egypt, the birth place of Civilization!

Perhaps, but weren't there also civilised Sumerians at an earlier date?

The Persians never even make it to border the Egyptians let alone destroy them and the Greeks, it's unhistorical for one, and it means that the Egyptians always either get taken by the Barbarians or fall to Civil-War and never falls in the hand of the Persians or Greeks and rarely the Romans. I don't know what historic thing this is trying to represent, for the only foe that was of any real threat to the Egyptians were the same people that destroyed them; the Persians.

This is mostly due to the presence of a strongly fortified independent Jerusalem. If this city didn't grow so much culture (due to the founding of Judaism) perhaps Egypt would be approached more frequently by Persian armies.

 

[civ_king]

what about the Chinese? or the Indians?

 

[Grishnash]

Both the Chinese and Indians are after Egypt, really.
Didn't Jerusalem fall around 600BC? That's some time before the Persians attacked and invaded Egypt, so shouldn't in Rhye's it fall somehow and thus allowing the Persians (Who should be more warring) to get close to the Egyptians.
And, sorry, call me crazy, but I've done research and cannot say that the Sumerians were the first civilized people, not before the Egyptians. But that is way aside the point

By the way the builders were also tax-payers who couldn't afford to pay, it was like another method of paying to the government.

That's really another way of paying the workers, and a pretty good one at that. The workers are still getting paid but what they make goes directly to what they owe

 

[Cethegus]

This is mostly due to the presence of a strongly fortified independent Jerusalem. If this city didn't grow so much culture (due to the founding of Judaism) perhaps Egypt would be approached more frequently by Persian armies.

You know what fixes this nicely? Not having Judaism originated in Jerusalem, as done in Panopticon's Protestantism mod. It makes the development regarding the ownership of the region and the city much more historical, at the expense of not explaining why the Crusades didn't succeed and making Jerusalem just another city in the Middle East.

If the Amun-Ra cult or Mediterranean/Mesopotamian polytheism is represented simply as "local culture", then I would like Judaism not represented at all either. It wasn't any nation's state religion for most of history until the mid 1900's and actually distorts the historicality of the mod rather than improving it. I'd rather Protestantism be straigthly implanted to the mod in future patches, making up for more interesting gameplay.

 

[Grishnash]

Funny story, with Judaism being founded there, more often then not when I play Egypt, it spreads to one of my cities, and if I foster it, it becomes not only my but the Greeks, Romans, Carthaginians, Ethiopians and Babylon's state religion before Christianity is founded...
Very interesting twist of fate don't you think?

 

[civ_king]

so India's civilization in 5500 BCE was after the Egyptians?

 

[scu98rkr]

"This is mostly due to the presence of a strongly fortified independent Jerusalem. If this city didn't grow so much culture (due to the founding of Judaism) perhaps Egypt would be approached more frequently by Persian armies."

Never really thought about this but this is soo true.

This city should be easily conquered by either the egyptians/babylonians/persians.

I understand why Rhye has put 3 archers in it because with a shrine it can prove very handy.

I not completely sure the best idea to fix this would be remove judaism but I can see how this would fix several problems.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Well, historically Jerusalem wasn't conquered by the Egyptians but by the Babylonians, even though the New Kingdom did include the Levant in the 1400's BC. That's just because Jerusalem isn't really as old as Tyre or Sidon. The Persians or Babylonians routinely capture it in my games, rarely the Egyptians.

What can really work is delaying the auto-founding of Judaism by Jerusalem until after 1000BC 9which is more true to history).

 

[Joecoolyo]

Well, historically Jerusalem wasn't conquered by the Egyptians but by the Babylonians, even though the New Kingdom did include the Levant in the 1400's BC. That's just because Jerusalem isn't really as old as Tyre or Sidon. The Persians or Babylonians routinely capture it in my games, rarely the Egyptians.
What can really work is delaying the auto-founding of Judaism by Jerusalem until after 1000BC 9which is more true to history).

How is it more true to history? Judaism was founded in 2000 BC. Anyway, idk about you guys, but in my games, half the time when if find the middle east, Jerusalem is razed. This is only started happening since used the new patch though.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

My secular reading of the Bible puts the founding of Judaism (as an organized religion) not at 2000 BC (Abraham's covenant), but some time around 900-1000BC. True, if you believe Genesis there have always been a race true to their God, but as a practised religion it can't really be said to have taken hold until the Jews settled in Canaan and expelled the other tribes who were not monotheists. Quote from Wikipedia:

According to Prof. Ze'ev Herzog of Tel Aviv University, monotheism, as a state religion, is probably "an innovation of the period of the Kingdom of Judea, following the destruction of the Kingdom of Israel." Herzog states that "The question about the date at which monotheism was adopted by the kingdoms of Israel and Judea arose with the discovery of inscriptions in ancient Hebrew that mention a pair of gods: Jehovah and his Asherah. At two sites, Kuntiliet Ajrud in the southwestern part of the Negev hill region, and at Khirbet el-Kom in the Judea piedmont, Hebrew inscriptions have been found that mention "Jehovah and his Asherah," "Jehovah Shomron and his Asherah, "Jehovah Teman and his Asherah." The authors were familiar with a pair of gods, Jehovah and his consort Asherah, and send blessings in the couple's name."

 

[Joecoolyo]

As a Jew, I always believed the start of my religion to be at the covenant. Even though up until 1000 B.C. we were only tribes (we hadn't settled yet), I still think that they can still be considered Jewish (at least some parts of the religion were in practice, and that was enough for me to count it as "organized").

 

[scu98rkr]

maybe found it first as an independent city with a Canaanite name. Maybe Jericho ?

Then at a later date have Judaism founded rename it Jerusalem and add a couple more troops if still independent or barbarian.

This would represent either the Jews conquering Palestine or the Canaanites becoming the Israelites depending on your view of the history of that region.

I would suggest a date closer to 900 BCE for the founding of Judaism as really there is still little archaeological evidence for the united monarchy.

 

[Cethegus]

As a Jew, I always believed the start of my religion to be at the covenant. Even though up until 1000 B.C. we were only tribes (we hadn't settled yet), I still think that they can still be considered Jewish (at least some parts of the religion were in practice, and that was enough for me to count it as "organized").

Historicality and gameplay-related practicality don't always go hand in hand. Jewish heritage as an oppressed people can't be properly represented with the current mechanics, with the cultural defense provided by Judaism making Yerushalayim nigh impossible to conquer in early times.

I say Judaism's auto-founding should either be postponed until 1000 AD or removed altogether. Currently it's ruining things for everybody - especially the Persians.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

I didn't have any trouble with it, given that immortals have 100% against archers now. Just sit 2 immortals in the woods north of it, and bide your time and reload...

 

[scu98rkr]

" I didn't have any trouble with it, given that immortals have 100% against archers now. Just sit 2 immortals in the woods north of it, and bide your time and reload... "

Personally Im less bothered about whether the human player can achieve this feat as to whether the AI can.

In Antiquity there was a certain of fluidity of empires emerging in the middle east.

Summerian/Babylon/Hittite/Assyrian/Persia/Greek/Arabs/Turkey and partly Egypt have all ruled parts of this territory as different times.

From Rhye's mod I generally assume the Babylonians represent the Summerian/Babylon/Assyria.
With the Barbarian city in Turkey representing the Hittites.

I dont think we're every going to get AI Greeks taking the area. In some ways you could say this was a quirk of history mainly down to one man Alexander the Great and is represented by a good human player expanding as the Greeks.

Currently there is a good enough chance of the AI Persians/Arabs/Turks taking the area over. They may not every game but they do some which to me is the point of Rhye's and Fall similar to the real life timeline but not exactly.

The only thing I'd say is that the AI Egypt almost always does nothing and eventually collapses.

It would be good if occasionally they took Palestine I mean why is there NO chance of them having an Empire ?

Personally I would see Mamaluk Egypt as being a re spawn of the Egyptian civ after control by the arabs and they controlled both Egpyt and Syria.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahri_dynasty

There seems to be some confusion on this issue.

I think most of us see the various Persian/Chinese Empires/Dynantises/Republics as being continuous civs but not others ie Rome to Italy.

 

[bestrfcplayer]

But was'nt christianity also founded in Jerusalem???

 

[Steb]

The only thing I'd say is that the AI Egypt almost always does nothing and eventually collapses.

It would be good if occasionally they took Palestine I mean why is there NO chance of them having an Empire ?

I agree that Egypt doesn't usually do much, but I want to point out that they sometimes do build a large empire. In my current game as Rome they had six cities: two on the Mediterranean coast, Niwt-Rst, another city further southwest and both Jerusalem and Sur, and they were stronger than Persia. Very nice! Of course they eventually collapsed because of barbs and Arabs, but that's the way it should be. Persia, Greece and Rome often have more urgent things to take care of.

 

[Cethegus]

I dont think we're every going to get AI Greeks taking the area. In some ways you could say this was a quirk of history mainly down to one man Alexander the Great and is represented by a good human player expanding as the Greeks.

That's very well said. I never thought it that way, either.

Also, Christianity is far more times founded somewhere other than Jerusalem so its auto-spawn doesn't need to be adjusted anyhow. It's fair game for future-Christians now, not so much for Jews.