This came up in another discussion, but I feel it's really worth its own thread.
As a player, I normally go for long-term benefits if I can at all afford it, so I naturally wanted to know how many additional Great People Philosophical would give me in the long run.
After I had a look at my savegames I started scratching my head because of the unexpectedly small difference. After crunching the numbers with a more abstract example, I noticed I had had some misconceptions about the trait.
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Let's assume we have cashed in a total of 10,000 base GPP.
If we had no other GPP modifiers, this is good for 13 Great People; with PHI the 20,000 GPP give us 17.
If we had all permanent modifers available (Parthenon, National Epic, Pacifism) before even starting our GP farm, we go from 35,000GPP to 45,000GPP, or from 22 Great People to 24.
***
Now, the examples aren't realistic. If we're PHI, we aren't going to ignore Great People, and if we pay attention to the mechanics we aren't likely to stack too many GPP bonuses (bonuses are additive instead of multiplicative, and GPP have diminishing returns as it is. If we do this, we get shafted twice - I for one would stay in Organised Religion).
However, the results are. Having had a look at pretty much all my endgame saves and making reasonable estimates about my average GPP bonuses, the difference PHI made/would have made was always 3 or 4 Great People.
This could have been 23/27 in a solid win fueld by wonderspam, or 10/13 in one desperate Deity warmonger game.
***
Even with the generous modifers from the best cities, this falls way short of the longterm potential of FIN or ORG in any reasonably-sized empire.
Even at the time of a SE just passing its peak, when the steady stream of Great People seemed such a big deal, the advantage lies with ORG compared to settling the extras. Also, let's not even mention the expansion phase, where the other economic traits are a lot more relevant. As such, picking a Philosophical leader and relying on settled Great People seems dubious - settling might be ok, but for a steady gain other traits do better.
Before anyone gets me wrong, I definitely think PHI still has its uses. It doesn't depend on empire size nearly as much. If one plans to spam wonders, the rewards come fairly quickly. Aggressive lightbulbing might pay off if one has a way to leverage the temporary gains. The flexibility could well be worth the sacrifice in efficiency if you intend to play to the map rather than the leader.
And, of course, not every game is about making the objectively best choice...
As a player, I normally go for long-term benefits if I can at all afford it, so I naturally wanted to know how many additional Great People Philosophical would give me in the long run.
After I had a look at my savegames I started scratching my head because of the unexpectedly small difference. After crunching the numbers with a more abstract example, I noticed I had had some misconceptions about the trait.
***
Let's assume we have cashed in a total of 10,000 base GPP.
If we had no other GPP modifiers, this is good for 13 Great People; with PHI the 20,000 GPP give us 17.
If we had all permanent modifers available (Parthenon, National Epic, Pacifism) before even starting our GP farm, we go from 35,000GPP to 45,000GPP, or from 22 Great People to 24.
***
Now, the examples aren't realistic. If we're PHI, we aren't going to ignore Great People, and if we pay attention to the mechanics we aren't likely to stack too many GPP bonuses (bonuses are additive instead of multiplicative, and GPP have diminishing returns as it is. If we do this, we get shafted twice - I for one would stay in Organised Religion).
However, the results are. Having had a look at pretty much all my endgame saves and making reasonable estimates about my average GPP bonuses, the difference PHI made/would have made was always 3 or 4 Great People.
This could have been 23/27 in a solid win fueld by wonderspam, or 10/13 in one desperate Deity warmonger game.
***
Even with the generous modifers from the best cities, this falls way short of the longterm potential of FIN or ORG in any reasonably-sized empire.
Even at the time of a SE just passing its peak, when the steady stream of Great People seemed such a big deal, the advantage lies with ORG compared to settling the extras. Also, let's not even mention the expansion phase, where the other economic traits are a lot more relevant. As such, picking a Philosophical leader and relying on settled Great People seems dubious - settling might be ok, but for a steady gain other traits do better.
Before anyone gets me wrong, I definitely think PHI still has its uses. It doesn't depend on empire size nearly as much. If one plans to spam wonders, the rewards come fairly quickly. Aggressive lightbulbing might pay off if one has a way to leverage the temporary gains. The flexibility could well be worth the sacrifice in efficiency if you intend to play to the map rather than the leader.
And, of course, not every game is about making the objectively best choice...