Philosophical: Long-term prospects

Sure the number of gpp you produce is the same weather you are phi or not but the GPP needed to next GP will be higher as you produce more GP's and hence the value of each GPP will be less(1/(X+y) is less than 1/x assuming x and y are positive as in this case).

In your case with 20 artists you'll need like 100*10+200*10=3000 GPP to make the last one thats only 12 cpt with pacfism and philo over 333 artisturns(scales with gamespeed). Not terribly efficient, but obviously not useless either.

I don't understand the part about the 12cpt. Since this is the last GA, it is always bombed (greatwork).

It is generally born in the GPFarm, so it is more like 250 artistturns. With 8 artists and the odd GPP from NE, etc, it's only 30 turns (if I didn't starve the city, which is something I always do with the last GP). In that last 25/30 turns the other cities also spit out their last GP, so I am getting 4000 free culture every 6 or 8 turns. And I can use them in the city I prefer.

I don't care if this is efficient or not. It is effective, and that's enough for me.
(Now, I shouldn't start discussing words with the "king of ambiguity" ;)).
 
My understanding of the OP is that Iranon was not saying that Philosophical is a weak trait but rather when compared to Financial or Organised it's benefits diminish more sharply later in the game and thus over the course of an entire game Philosophical is weaker in relative terms. Organised is presumably stronger at higher difficulties due to the increased maintenance costs.
This would assume an expanding empire. If for some reason an empire was limited to 10 pop15 cities then the calculations are quite different to an empire of 30 pop20 cities. Maybe there's a break off point where Philosophical remains more powerful than Financial or Organised but that's far too clever for me.
I also assume that he assumes that players are experienced enough to know how to leverage any particular trait in any particular phase of the game.
 
It doesn't matter that it is born in the artist farm as your artist farm would make the last one anyways weather it required 3000 or 2800. The point is that the "extra" artist you get from your "trash" city gives 4000 culture from 3000 GPP. If you didn't get it you would have to produce 3000 less GPP to get 1 less GP. At 9 gpp per artistturn that is 12 cpt per turn(obviously the culture the artist contribute to the city itself is irrelevant) 4000/3000*9.

Maintenance costs at emperor is 95% of what they are at deity so they don't exactly rise sharply at the higher difficulties, however the OP is right that if everything you do with your GP's is wait for them until the endgame to bomb them(as would be the case with jesusin's culture example) you aren't getting a whole lot of extra GP's compared to what you would get with a non-philo civ. Of course he isn't actually factoring in the fact that GP's aren't given contiously and hence you would be able to get GP's from cities that normaly wouldn't produce them, however even with that it is not a large amount of extra GP's you are getting...

Would be nice to do some math to see what the actual benefit from philo is. 55*100+10*10*100+55*200 is the cost of 20 GP's right? 26500 GPP needed. Lets assume you are in pacifism most of the time(cept maybe the first 3 but thats so minor part it is not really significant) and you have pantheon and NE in city that helps roughly 1/3 of your GPP generation. That means you get a multiplier of 3.83(1 base + 1 philo + 1 pacfism + .5 pantheon + .33 NE). With this you need roughly 6920 GPP to produce 20 GP's. If you didn't have philo you would only produce 19580 GPP or enough for almost 3 GP's less(3 or 2 depending on how close you are, but probably 3 because it is less likely that trash cities will be able to contribute a meaningfull amount). Thats 12000 culture in the culture example. I haven't done the math on how much financial contribute(or spiritual for that matter) so hard to say which one is best but it seems like it is at least soundly beating organized in this case...
 
a) --> That's like saying that, since most advanced techs cost more beakers, you should try not to discover any techs in your games.

I think it's closer to the argument that says, if you are financial, you should work coastal tiles (50% commerce boost!) instead of towns....
 
I think part of the problem here is how we are calculating the benefit of GP. The raw number of GP is important, but what is more important is the number of turns we can utilize the GP benefit. Earlier GP are more valuable then later GP. So I wrote a very simple program that will calculate the number of GP and the number of turns you can utilize a GP based on the number of cities and the GPP/turn for each city. For the sake of the argument lets assume each GP generated is a Great Scientist and he is settled right away. The results were very interesting. Here are a few comparisons:

Early Game, assuming you are running two specialists in each city over the course of 100 Turns and you have not generated a single GP yet:
Edit: Sorry about the formatting, I am not sure why the columns are not aligned!

Code:
                          GP                      GP Turn Benefit
PHILO Civ
1 City:                 4		232 Turns
2 Cities                6		315 Turns
3 Cities                7		373 Turns
4 Cities                8		414 Turns
10 Cities              10		538 Turns

Non Philo Civ
1 City                  3		133 Turns
2 Cities                4		182 Turns
3 Cities                4		215 Turns
4 Cities                5		232 Turns
10 Cities               6		248 Turns

In the early game the PH civ is getting a very big boost in the GP Turns! Comparing 4 cities running 2 scientists in each the PH civ will generate three extra GP and an extra 1,092 est beakers. That is an easy medieval tech or two. The gap grows even bigger if you are running Rep. Much more powerful then I originally thought.


Mid Game, (We will use the questions from Voice of Unreason. 1 City running 8 specialists, and all other cities running 6 specialists). But you have already created 5 Specialists.

Code:
                                                 GP                       GP Turn Benefit
Philo Civ
1 Main City                                    5		268 Turns	
1 Main City, 1 Other City                  7		383 Turns	
1 Main City, 2 Other Cities                9		457 Turns	 
1 Main City, 3 Other Cities                9		528 Turns	 
1 Main City, 9 Other Cities               13		723 Turns		

Non Philo Civ
1 Main City                                    3		132 Turns	
1 Main City, 1 Other City                  5		188 Turns	
1 Main City, 2 Other Cities                5		233 Turns	
1 Main City, 3 Other Cities                5		274 Turns	
1 Main City, 9 Other Cities                9		351 Turns

Again the PH civ is beating out the non-ph civ quite nicely. And keep in mind that this comparison is not really realistic. The PH civ will probably already have a couple of extra settled GP over the non ph civ. The total GP produced does not include the five you already started with.


Now lets see what happens if the PH civ is running Pacifism
Code:
                                               GP             GP Turn Benefit
1 Main City                                  7		379 Turns
1 Main City, 1 Other City              10		526 Turns
1 Main City, 2 Other Cities            11		637 Turns
1 Main City, 3 Other Cities            13		717 Turns
1 Main City, 9 Other Cities            18		1,002 Turns

That is a very nice boost and proves in my mind that a PH civ can gain quite a bit in the mid game by running Pacifism.

So to summarize all that data and a couple of key points:
1. PHILO gives a solid turn advantage in creating GP which can easily translate into a extra tech, a ton of gold or extra hammers. Far stronger then Org in the early and mid game.
2. A PHILO civ should run specialists in multiple cities. Probably around three. After that point you get diminishing returns.
3. A PHILO civ should consider switching to pacifism once that civic becomes available.
4. GP have a bigger impact in the early game then in the late game
5. Early GP are dirt cheap and a great bargain especially the first 10. From 10 to 15 they start to get much more expensive. After 15 they are extremely expense.
6. Philo can generate extra GPP with very little investment - both in the number of specialists needed, hammers invested (National Epic and Parthenon) or civics (Pacifism).
7. The opportunity cost is to run specialists in the early game is much lower. After liberalism the opportunity cost to run specialists is much higher (Due to Free Speech & Printing Press). You will reach a point where it does not make sense to keep chasing GP.
 
Beancounter,

In the first chart (100 turns), are you assuming two scientists from Library's or Caste System Scientists?

BTW to all thread contributors - This is a great thread! :goodjob:
 
Hooray, somebody else did the math for me!

First comment: I think it would be better? clearer? to actually specify in the tables the GPP yield of the cities in question. After all, it doesn't matter whether we have 30 base GPP + 100% or 20 base GPP + 200%.

Second: it's probably worth acknowledging that it isn't clear that you can really add up turns like this. 6 extra beakers is a much bigger advantage on turn 100 than on turn 200 - assuming typical growth. One way to correct for that problem would be to show (where we are directly comparing scenarios) which turns have a difference. But I'll admit that rather than do that extra work, I'd probably just add a disclaimer :)
 
Beancounter: how easy would it be to run through the program assuming a non-philosophical civ running pacifism (assuming they use first GS for philo bulb).
 
You dont need Philosophy to get Pacifism. There is a wonder that gives you all religious civics. Although you do need philosophy for Liberalism. SP... whatever its called

On my current game i got Pacifism before Philosophy was teched. Lost 6-7 forest in the process. I did have 7-8 gold resources on my island that helped. hehe.
 
It's the same bonus for 1 gold or 8, but of course 8 will help you get the tech sooner!

Paya is pretty easy to get since with gold it's not that expensive hammer-wise, and AIs greatly delay aesthetics. I usually have other priorities but if you want to make use of it it's there.
 
You only need one but if theres 8 spread around its easier to nab one before the Ai does. Yeah with maths it was chopped in very few turns.

True there are other techs to go for but the focus in this topic is on philosophical leader.
 
@ Jesusin: Not sure about twisted, but the logic behind my points is certainly unintuitive. As such, I expect counterarguments... threads like these would be a lot less interesting if we all immediately agreed.

For the 'diluting' effect: Naturally, you need some GPP to work with to make it worthwhile, but the sharply increasing cost makes doubling them less relevant in the long run - the only question is where the doubling effects stops doing much.

Other modifiers do matter. For example, say you get an umimpressive 5000 base GPP in a lone GP farm (that's 200 turns at 25 GPP... 8 specialists and a shrine or the Great Library and 5 normal specialists).
Without modifiers, this is good for 9 Great People. One 100% modifier (NE) will get this to 13, 2 (NE + PHI/Pacifism) to 15, and all 3 to 17. As has been pointed out, speed can matter as much as volume, but the effect certainly shouldn't be overlooked.

***

@ beancounter: Awesome, and thanks a lot for sharing that! This program sounds very useful for this, Just one request: Could you do this again and include the National Epic for the main GP farm in the midgame example? You probably had it for most if not all of this period, and I suspect it would change the numbers quite a lot...
 
You guys are all going about this the wrong way. The only thing that needs to be figured out is at which point making specialists in a given city stops being better than working cottages. Find the breakpoint and the rest works itself out.
 
You guys are all going about this the wrong way. The only thing that needs to be figured out is at which point making specialists in a given city stops being better than working cottages. Find the breakpoint and the rest works itself out.

I wish it was so simple. How many million posts have already been written about the CE versus SE economies? Nobody has defined such a breakpoint clearly.

Furthermore, the break point depends on your victory date.


And of course it all depends on the use you are going to make out of the GP.
Let's analyse one simple example: a cultural game with 6 cities, 2 of the Legendary ones are cottage cities, the third Legedary city will be the GPFarm.

The 2 cottage Legendary cities will never pop a GP. They will work every available tile til there is no food left. If there is still food, they might run one or two artists, for their culture output, starting late in the game, so no GP will pop there. The breakpoint for this cities is "never".

The GPFarm will be dedicated to generating GP all game long. It would make no sense to switch to newly-built cottages at the very end of the game. The breakpoint for this city is "always".

The other 3 cities are free to run cottages or specialists. Since we are using the cultural slider at 100%, using cottages is useless. There is no point in accumulating culture in cities different than the three Legendary. So, even if they will only pop a single GA, and even if that will requiere to starve the city to pop1, it is a good idea to hire artists there. The breakpoint for this cities is "always".
 
And so, you have found the breakpoints for that particular game. Simple.
 
You can't really compare different methods (SE CE and the like) without setting a time frame. If you want to go with what's best long-term then that's one idea, I guess you're the kind of player that think the creative trait sucks.

Personally I've become more and more in favour of early-game advantage in traits as I believe early on is where you want to stack every advantage you can, if you survive long enough, your micromanagement and strategy skills will take care of the rest most of the time.
Having a strong early game enables a late game most often.
 
Problem with creative is you only need it if you need it. If you dont, its a wasted trait.
 
Problem with creative is you only need it if you need it. If you dont, its a wasted trait.

EVERY new city can skip a monument and go straight with a granary no matter what. This improves expansion speed (and getting conquered cities up too). Cities become viable more quickly, by however many hammers your monument costs you (or at least a whip). Found 10 cities and this is indeed an important early advantage. Or are you saying you don't found as many new cities as possible early on?

That's also discounting a cheap and very whip-able library. Again, I don't know about you, but I don't skip libraries in most of my games, and an early GS works for ANY economy. Put an academy your cottage capitol that much sooner or whatever. At very least, you are improving your research there.

Then you get into situations where culture pressure actually matters, and creative has an edge here in terms of claiming that nice gem or gold resource off the AI. I'm assuming this is what you're referring to by needing it, but is it *ever* not useful? No!

I consider it a mid-tier trait (somewhere between fin/org/cha and protective), but it's an early and useful boost. Admittedly I like expansive slightly more, but still.
 
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