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PHs: AW SG: Rise of the Queen Mother!

lurker's comment:
With raging barbs on, you have the time to get a early religion before things get "hot".
And I would advise getting one, becouse once things get hot, it might be your only option to get border expansions at all.

I really appreciate the opportunity to be a part of this SG. Hopefully we can get something going without being crushed to soon. I've never played always war, but it sounds interesting. Raging Barbs will keep us from doing anything else than military anyway :D .

My thoughts on early strategy:

1. I would second the move to the plains for our capital. Thus we gain a nice high food/high production mix, irrigated corn + hills is a nice perspective. The downside of course is losing the coast, which is always a good area for a financial civ. The one remaining incense, the wine and the fresh water lake should make up for that though.

2. BW is our first research goal - researching and founding a religion may kill us before we could use its benefits. We should aim for the Oracle - Code of Laws - slingshot to get Confucianism and concentrate on military first.

3. What comes after BW is quite difficult to tell because we don't know the terrain yet. If we gain a copper resource - in the best case on one of those London hills - then we should go for the Wheel and Agriculture (getting the eventual copper and this corn online quick). If we don't have copper then Hunting => Animal Husbandry (to check Horses) should be the path. If we lack both copper and horses, then Archery may be our emergency plan, but I think we won't survive then anyway.

4. In our Queen we trust - and we must, for this one will be hard...

Feel free to comment, I'm excited about playing in this SG with all of you !


i, too, think the push an early rel may leave us high and dry w/the whole metal situation; CoL or even just Philosophy....

if we don't have copper nearby, i would go archery before AH just in case and since HA's don't really help us w/defenseI may even cut down the turns to 20 since it will be tough and some collaboration will be needed...

i'll play it by ear, though...
2. BW is our first research goal - researching and founding a religion may kill us before we could use its benefits. We should aim for the Oracle - Code of Laws - slingshot to get Confucianism and concentrate on military first.

Completely agree with this. Military is of course our priority, but we shouldn't neglect any exploits along the way :D. SO, as I see it, our tech path is something like:

Bronze Working, then:

IF near copper: The Wheel > Mysticism > Meditation/Polytheism > Priesthood

IF not near copper (lord help us): Hunting > Archery > The Wheel (etc)

Do we start with Agriculture?


also, i'll prob build a warr off the bat, and most likely another one since i could prob build one and get to Pop2 w/in a turn or two...@pop2, worker for chops!..chop a worker, chop a settler..maybe 2...

i think oracle only if we have marble nearby though...if it's not, we should change up our initial techs...

if copper: wheel>worker techs...
if no copper: beeline to archery>wheel>worker techs...

hmmm..even w/marble, priesthood delays worker techs quite a bit, too...
also, depending on events: will prob play 10/15t's before dinner, the rest either after dinner of after . . . some other event slated to begin @ 9 pm est...maybe.... :p
Well we already have mining, so really we only lack agriculture (though we do need that for our corny goodness). We've a few hills we can mine, and forests we can chop before we need to do anything else really, though hooking up the corn should be a priority too.


if copper: wheel > agriculture > oracle path? > pottery > etc
if no copper: hunting > archery > agriculture > oracle path? > pottery etc

yes! good point...i was mulling that over as i was looking at our map...what other worker techs would we need besides mining, agr and wheel, at least in the near-term....

i agree w/agr, but still think that Oracle should depend on Marble...Biz Mar Kee & Nap=Ind.

edit: but, w/AW...will they try to build it or move towards units??
I've never played AW before, so I couldn't say if they'll go for it or not. Oracle is only a couple of chops regardless, though the exact hammer calculation I'll leave for someone with ready access to CIV (I'm at work, so no such luck for me).

What's say we get BW and see from there. Obviously if there's no copper it will make the choice easy --> archery path confirmed. If we have the wonderful axe making metal, then I do think there's something in the notion of beelining to the oracle with the possibility of picking up a religion on the way. If no others are FIDL, then our lurker friend might be right and the other civs might be neglecting religion in favour of military. In which case, buddhism or hinduism could be a real gain for us.
Thinking about it a little more, AW shouldn't affect the other civs' production priorities until they meet us, because until then they won't know that they're at war with anyone. It's more the raging barbs which might make them pump out some more military than wonders. In fact, if we're really lucky, one or more of them will fall to the barbs before we even meet them :D.

Oh and in those tech paths I theorise above, I am of course aware that we need wheel and agriculture immediately after we secure our military options (copper/archery), then on to the oracle :).
I agree with the oracle -> Code of laws would be a very nice snag. However pholkero makes a good point, we will lack many worker techs.

Timon, if we dont have copper, I think we cant waste more time going animal husbandry, we will have to go archery immediately if we dont have copper.

if copper: wheel > agriculture > oracle path? > pottery > etc

I like this but like pholkero mentioned, it will delay the other worker techs, but the good thing about this path is that it opens up monarchy, which may be useful for the luxury + heriditary rule.

So many decisions, ill think about it a bit more and post my thoughts.:mischief:

[edit]btw, Ive noticed industrious civs will go after pyramids over oracle most of the time, especially when they dont start with mysticism. How many civs up there which start with mysticism?
Ok I just thought about it, and looked at the tech tree for a little bit. I think 1000 BC is relatively safe for Oracle since Gandhi isnt in the game. Pholkhero, I think for Oracle, marble will actually not be that useful. We will have to waste time researching masonry, then build a quarry, hook up marble, thats alot of turns lost.

Ill do a little analysis using normal mode, I think Epic should be proportional to normal. 60 turns to build oracle is pretty 'safe'.

~15 Bronze working
~7 Agriculture
~7 Wheel
~6 Mysticism
~8 Meditation
~6 Priesthood
49: so 11 turns to build oracle

Now lets not forget, we will need to get Writing and Pottery also for Code of laws, thats what im afraid of. The time it will take to get pottery and writing.

I think we need atleast 20 turns for pottery and writing. Im basing my calculations on basically 8-10 beakers per turn. No river around us so our research will be pretty slow early game.

Now, in my opinion, I think it may be better to go pottery before we go down the oracle path. This way we will have a cottage or 2 up and it will help out our research, probably shave off 1 or 2 turns from writing. My estimations tell me, with this path we will have oracle around 800-900 BC area, its risky but I think we can do it, considering only civ up there with mysticism is monty, and he will probably be focusing on military early on. And oracle can be built in 8-9 turns very easily with a couple of chops.

Obviously, we will have to push out a settler and a few warriors before we start oracle. You guys decide now, im 50-50 either way.

[Edit] Wait wait, this is Noble level. I was basing my 1000 BC guess on Monarch level, I think we can definately get Oracle this way. But my suggested tech path is:

BW -> Wheel, Agriculture -> Pottery -> Oracle path -> Writing

[Edit 2] And obviously, if we dont have copper, I dont think Oracle is feasable.

[Edit 3] Sorry about another edit, will we have to lower our research rate with our second city if we dont get gold from a hut? Im not sure about this, might want to look into this also because if we have to lower research rate, that can cost us a few important turns.
Good analysis :)

I'd say IF we pop out 2 early settlers AND we have nearby copper, then and only then can we beeline to oracle. Otherwise we might have to let that one go and reassess later.
Pholk, enough planning. Get to the heads on poles business!

Edit: Sorry. As Pholk can probably attest, I'm a meticulous over-planner. All good analysis above. I just think we're speculating without enough data. You can't plan a tech tree without knowing the lay of the land first. Get Pholk off his backside to play some turns and we'll be in much better shape to pick a winning strategy.
Don't forget the pillaging, Paul. No self-respecting squisher would pass up decent pillage, so long as it doesn't interfere with the squishing.
rex_tyranus said:
Don't forget the pillaging, Paul. No self-respecting squisher would pass up decent pillage, so long as it doesn't interfere with the squishing.

Oh of course! In fact, my pillaging does sometimes get in the way of my squishing. :blush: I have been known to delay declaring war until I've fully pillaged the landscape of my former victim (around their razed sites). Very poor behaviour that I figure I won't have means or opportunity to repeat in this game :D
Turn 0 (4000 BC)Well, i moved before i posted so, here are my (pre-)game thoughts. I didn't read much after my post a few hours ago, but its good to see that our thoughts marched together in many respects...here are my turns, w/accommpanying screenshots...

Turn 1 (3960 BC)
London founded
London begins: Warrior
Research begun: Bronze Working

Turn 2 (3920 BC)
Tribal village results: lots of gold

Turn 3 (3880 BC)

Turn 4 (3840 BC)

Turn 5 (3800 BC)

Turn 6 (3760 BC)

Turn 7 (3720 BC)

Turn 8 (3680 BC)
London's borders expand
Tribal village results: scout

Turn 9 (3640 BC)

And our scout find the cape of No Hope :lol:

Turn 10 (3600 BC)

Turn 11 (3560 BC)
Tribal village results: a little gold
London grows: 2

Turn 12 (3520 BC)
Warrior defeats (1.16/2): Barbarian Panther

Turn 13 (3480 BC)

Turn 14 (3440 BC)
Tribal village results: a little gold

Turn 15 (3400 BC)
London finishes: Warrior
And, I've found Napolean!

Can i avoid him?!?
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