Pie's Ancient Europe

[Hornakhtyotef]

Hi,
given I find it slightly disappointing the lack of participation of PAE fans, I decided to step in. Ancient Civilizations is my full time pastime, so why not try to add more content into PAE if Pierre desires that I join the party of the developping team...somehow.

One thing that struck me is the unbalance between Middle East civilizations and European ones. Of course, it makes sense since PAE stands for Pie's Ancient Europe and the Middle East and Indians were added likely later.

I wish to help the PAE community to rebalance and add more content in regards to civs of the Middle East. One thing I find desesperating in the video games world is the sheer amount of games set in antiquity for Rome and Greece. Barely two games for Egypt and nothing else. I found one for Ancient China.

No Babylonia? No Assyria? No Sumer?

I know it boils down to popularity and Ancient Egypt, Greece and Rome hits more at home for the gaming population, but that doesn't justify the lack of at least one game for one of Mesopotamia. It is even preposterous there is no game for Persia (Prince of Persia doesn't count at all).

Without further ado, for today, I want to add material for the Elamite civilizations.
I've recently read this book covering the entire history of Elam, so it'll help me regarding the information material.

I can't cover everything today because it is late, but I start with this material before rearranging and editing. I'll let Pierre decides if he wants more ancient civilizations.

==============================

Regarding wonders, I made the Elamite wonder "Choghal Zanbil" despite the NIF rendering didn't work at all.
Here are screenshots:

Spoiler :

For its bonus, I think something related to water as it was one of its purposes. Will be discussed later.
For the video, this youtube video is perfect. Even the music rocks.

========================

Regarding leaders, I have these suggestions, but it is still under construction.

Untash-Napirisha

Spoiler :

He is the maker of the ziggurat of Choghal Zanbil.
One of the most reknowned Elamite ruler.

Naram-Sîn

Spoiler :

No description yet about Naram-Sîn.

Elamite Sukkalmah

Spoiler :

It is not an individual per se, but a title during the period where Elam was at its apex of power. Elam was so strong the kingdom(s) had effects as far as Anatolia. The title of Sukkalmah was the highest of three tiles thought to represent different kingdoms where the Sukkalmah was residing in Shushan (Susa). One the Sukkalmah died, the next in title took over the highest echelon of power.
Anyways, it is not needed to have individuals in PAE. Unnamed kings are as interesting.

Humban-Haltash III

Spoiler :

Neo-Elamite Ruler that confronted Assurbanipal. I shall give more details later. Lack of time now.

=======================================

So, what do you think, Pie?

I attached the failed NIF file of the ziggurat of Choghal Zanbil btw.
Hope that gives the sparkle to not give up on PAE despite lack of participation.

 

[pie_at]

Thank you for your efforts! But I am sorry, I must deny.
I wouldn't say PAE has less Mesopotamian options. PAE includes more about Sumer, Babylon, Assur, Hitties, Phoenicians and Israelites then any other game.
I can't add every big city state of the Bronze Age. Before I'd add Elam, I'd prefer Uruk, Mari or even the kingdom of Saba. And there are some other CIVs that even can be called a civilization and not a single city state: eg Armenia, Thracians,...

And adding a CIV in PAE doesn't mean just adding two leaders and a wonder for them. I need unique buildings (the more the better) and special units too! without that, I don't add a CIV because, as you said, for balance reasons.

 

[Soulmate]

Just wanted to share some observation : AI citites are ususaly stacked up with horses/camels/elephants instead of useful untis, so I would suggest to remove animal spawn after some number of turns, or disable it when the resourcse improvement gets built. Cheers.

 

[pie_at]

Thx, k. Will have a look, but Patch 3 will be lots better!

I am sorry, I know I had promised patch 3 before xmas, but testing and bug fixing and testing, and bug fixing and testing again and again takes time...

I try to get to an end as soon as possible! What I can say in advance: Fasten your seat belt!

 

[Soulmate]

No rush, I know the patch will be worth the wait

 

[isenchine]

Hi Pie!

I've been told that: "PAE has a feature with plague affecting a tile which saw a lot of fighting because of dead bodies spreading diseases. In addition PAE has "after months of brutal fighting tile's improvement got destroyed" feature. "

Would you be so kind as to point me to which function this refer (a tile with heavy fighting) so I could pillage your mod?

It would be for my adaptation of Jon Shafer's scenario on WWI.

Thank you!

 

[pie_at]

Pillage my mod

Ok, it's in EventManager in onCombatResult and starts with:
"# Improvement destruction during battle / destroy imp" until "Techboost"
You have to change the catapult units and add your cannon units instead.
(be sure, pPlot is set before)

Texts you need are:

  <TEXT>
     <Tag>TXT_KEY_MESSAGE_IMPROVEMENT_DESTROYED_COMBAT</Tag>
     <English>During several days of fighting the improvement "%s1" was destroyed.</English>
     <French>Un aménagement (%s1) a été détruit par les intenses combats dans la région.</French>
     <German>Während tagelanger Gefechte wurde die Modernisierung "%s1" zerstört.</German>
     <Italian>During several days of fighting the improvement "%s1" was destroyed.</Italian>
     <Spanish>Después de muchos días de lucha la mejora "%s1" fue destruida.</Spanish>
   </TEXT>
  <TEXT>     
    <Tag>TXT_KEY_MESSAGE_IMPROVEMENT_DESTROYED_COMBAT_PLOT_OWNER</Tag>
     <English>During several days of fighting between %s1_leader and %s2_leader your land has been ravaged (%s3).</English>
     <French>D'âpres combats entre %s1_leader et %s2_leader ont dévasté vos terres (%s3).</French>
     <German>Während tagelanger Kämpfe zwischen %s1_leader und %s2_leader wurde Euer Land verwüstet (%s3).</German>
     <Italian>During several days of fighting between %s1_leader and %s2_leader your land has been ravaged (%s3).</Italian>
     <Spanish>Después de muchos días de lucha entre %s1_leader y %s2_leader tu tierra ha sido devastada (%s3).</Spanish>
   </TEXT>

EDIT: ehm, this page changed the special chars into normal letters. so, you'd better export the texts from my online text tool.

 

[isenchine]

Thanks a lot, Pie

Found it. My goodness! There are 1,200 lines of code in "onCombatResult" (and I have a copy of 1 year ago!)

PS: I'll re-do the characters. Thanks again.

 

[cool.sound]

i see patch 3 is up on the german forum

i would guess the scenario makers still need time

excellent work

 

[pie_at]

Yes, some texts in only one scenario is missing and just gets included into the text tool. english translation is also required then.

 

[H4run]

After spending long hours of playing realism invictus, I decided to try out this mod (and I try many other mods but fail to like it) I must say this is a hidden gem in civilization 4 mod, another great mod beside RI. I like the hunting feature on this mod as it really add both adventure and realism to the game, I like how the promotion being organize, I like most of the penalty that given from the beginning that make growing a city without proper infrastructure to build a proper city is almost impossible (and it should be!). The unit are awesome, the map are awesome, the ability to hire mercenary and use it for proxy war! And many more! simply put it elevated civilization game more than just a mere board game to a much more complex level. The game also amazingly light I can play it easily on my laptop without any lagging.

The bit downside of this mod in my view are (maybe it is just me), how the map automatically set to unexplored after my unit left the region. I hope it can be fixed with some tech, I haven't finish the game yet but I already play quite far. RI mod are too crowded with war while this one is somewhat too peaceful, you can feel save building your civilization without any worry other civilization will DOW you.

Technology transfer feel bit unrealistic at this time of history, technology diffusion from open border are more likely, as now my research are included Ottoman and Asia history, even at that time foreign technology were done by open border and trade depending also with the relation between the two states. Atjeh Sultanate for example before Egypt and Hejaz annexed by the Ottoman their technology were influenced by Chinese technology, it was after the time of Suleyman the Magnificient Atjeh actually flip their technological influence to Ottoman (Ottoman get accessed to Indian Ocean and made trading -open border- with the surrounding Sultanate), trading of gun and wave of mercenaries from Ottoman later on made Atjeh able to build Cannon that highly influenced by Ottoman design, and the process start from 16th century until 17th century which resulted the peak of Atjeh military power under the reign of Iskandar Muda which totally check Portuguese power in Malaka strait to passive. Hence it is never be a direct transfer 1 day or 1 year technology if it apply in 16th-17th century world than in ancient world it should be somewhat more harder, technology influence goes naturally by process of trade, and good relation also determine the outcome (Atjeh arguably was a vassal of Ottoman). Hence I always toggle off technology transfer during my game, hope you may consider to change it.

However this is a great game, I have 2 favourite mod RI and this, I really enjoy it so much! thanks for making it for our entertainment!

 

[pie_at]

Thank you very much haroon!
You really know much about the Early Middle Ages in the orient!

To your likes: Yes, I also think it's still a hidden mod of CIV 4 but it's on you to spread its fame!
They are many things that are based on history and never used in other games before. It's almost a surprise to find out things by playing: For historians as well as for others.

To your dislikes:
- black fog: This is one of a big feature I am very proud of. It's a great mistake to think we had satellite pictures (even with the standard fog of war) of landscapes from the early beginning of civilization. It's a big no-go in historical games. Modders are afraid of using this because of gaming fun. But it just shows the hard evolution of human being. And yes, don't worry, for those you prefer playing with the standard fog of war, in PAE you have the posibility to "fix" that bug
Just learn cartography and later map making and life - or should I better say - expansion will get easier! A detailed map in iron age was science fiction!
But as I said: don't worry: PAE shows you the evolution of map making as it shows you the evolution of lots of things (mathematics, medicine, weaponry,...). Just learn to remember cities with wonders (cartography) then draw coast lines, mountains and rivers with map making and after all, learn to draw road maps and there it is: the standard fog of war! Yeah
But before you go the long, long way to draw road maps, you can assign map makers (with map making of course) who can draw you things you like: eg, big cities, small cities, mountain ranges, coasts.. what ever you want to pay out it's a great PAE feature!

Tech diffusion: it's already implemented as it is in BTS: Techs become cheaper and cheaper. The more CIVs earn a tech, the cheaper it is for all the others. It's a simple calculation, why should I change this fact and program a new one? Is there a hurry?! I don't think so.
So Tech diffusion is already implemented, I added another thing: getting tech points during battle against units you don't have. I think, that's more important then adding or accelerate a feature that is already implemented in BTS.
so, if you are far away of having chariots, you will get tech points of this tech if you defeat such a unit. But this feature will be availabe in PATCH 3, which will be - what I really hope - very soon available.

Be sure: PATCH 3 will be a new PAE. Better then ever before.

 

[H4run]

Thank you very much haroon!

no no I'm the one who thank you for you making this mod while I don't pay a penny and enjoy it for free and can openly have an opinion and express my request, thanks man you did a great job!

You really know much about the Early Middle Ages in the orient!

I guess I'm lucky earning money by studying! And I'm really a rookies in this thing I'm just a student.

To your dislikes:
- black fog: This is one of a big feature I am very proud of. It's a great mistake to think we had satellite pictures (even with the standard fog of war) of landscapes from the early beginning of civilization. It's a big no-go in historical games. Modders are afraid of using this because of gaming fun. But it just shows the hard evolution of human being. And yes, don't worry, for those you prefer playing with the standard fog of war, in PAE you have the posibility to "fix" that bug
Just learn cartography and later map making and life - or should I better say - expansion will get easier! A detailed map in iron age was science fiction!
But as I said: don't worry: PAE shows you the evolution of map making as it shows you the evolution of lots of things (mathematics, medicine, weaponry,...). Just learn to remember cities with wonders (cartography) then draw coast lines, mountains and rivers with map making and after all, learn to draw road maps and there it is: the standard fog of war! Yeah
But before you go the long, long way to draw road maps, you can assign map makers (with map making of course) who can draw you things you like: eg, big cities, small cities, mountain ranges, coasts.. what ever you want to pay out it's a great PAE feature!

I was just thinking during the game that I can make a suggestion for this mod to add something like cartographer (that work like a special explorer in EU), and I thought it was too much for me to ask such thing and now you tell me you apply exactly that? Great! I take all of my criticism, this feature itself without other make this mod a great mod, you don't know how excited I am to know this! You did a great job!

RI mod are too crowded with war while this one is somewhat too peaceful, you can feel save building your civilization without any worry other civilization will DOW you.

I am wrong in this, I take this also. Just found something interesting in my game today, I play as Thebes, and suddenly band of bandit appear infront of one of my cities, I suspect it was accommodated by other civ and that time I was in war with scythian, after I successfully repel the invader that attacked my isolated city with poor defence by spending most of my money to hired mercenary, after torturing some captives I get to know the possible nation who commissioned those bandit, which were Greek, Spartan, Scythian and Rome. I have good relation with the other Greek civilization so I never suspect them, but to my surprise it was Dionysos who stab me in the back and he perpetuated the attack by DOW-ing me the next turn and start attacking my other city. I must say that was quite smart tactic, and quite aggressive, he directly punished me for declaring war to other nation from a request of other powerful nation who friendly at me.

Hence in conclusion awesome game, I guess the down side of this game that I mentioned is because I am not yet completely see the bigger picture of this game, so many to discover, include I just knew there are probability to enslave the defeated soldier, battle formation, capturing the enemies unit, it just keep surprising me. I guess I must play this game till finish and repeat it again and again to get a clear picture. I can simply say this game is epic, I cannot wait for the next version, and once again thank you for making such a good mod that worth an expansion.

 

[pie_at]

Thx again for your words!

Oh, the map making feature is not in the current patch 2? Then I can understand your issue. (I added so many things in patch 3 that I don't remember what's old and new).

But I will create a thread for the patch 3 soon, so that you can read all changes and extensions.
I can promise, the German and some Spanish players did their best to test EVERYTHING and check everything and they didn't save in critics and upgrades. Those reports became silent the last few days. I think, Patch 3 is available this week.

 

[H4run]

Oh, the map making feature is not in the current patch 2? Then I can understand your issue. (I added so many things in patch 3 that I don't remember what's old and new).

I don't know I never said or imply something like that Pie, my technology haven't reach map making yet, however I really hope cartography is included within patch 2, if not I will wait to test it at patch 3.

But I will create a thread for the patch 3 soon, so that you can read all changes and extensions.
I can promise, the German and some Spanish players did their best to test EVERYTHING and check everything and they didn't save in critics and upgrades. Those reports became silent the last few days. I think, Patch 3 is available this week.

That's good news Pie I really looking forward for it! I will surely keep checking this forum to get the latest update! Good luck to you and your team!

 

[Hornakhtyotef]

After spending long hours of playing realism invictus, I decided to try out this mod (and I try many other mods but fail to like it) I must say this is a hidden gem in civilization 4 mod, another great mod beside RI. I like the hunting feature on this mod as it really add both adventure and realism to the game, I like how the promotion being organize, I like most of the penalty that given from the beginning that make growing a city without proper infrastructure to build a proper city is almost impossible (and it should be!). The unit are awesome, the map are awesome, the ability to hire mercenary and use it for proxy war! And many more! simply put it elevated civilization game more than just a mere board game to a much more complex level. The game also amazingly light I can play it easily on my laptop without any lagging.

The bit downside of this mod in my view are (maybe it is just me), how the map automatically set to unexplored after my unit left the region. I hope it can be fixed with some tech, I haven't finish the game yet but I already play quite far. RI mod are too crowded with war while this one is somewhat too peaceful, you can feel save building your civilization without any worry other civilization will DOW you.

Technology transfer feel bit unrealistic at this time of history, technology diffusion from open border are more likely, as now my research are included Ottoman and Asia history, even at that time foreign technology were done by open border and trade depending also with the relation between the two states. Atjeh Sultanate for example before Egypt and Hejaz annexed by the Ottoman their technology were influenced by Chinese technology, it was after the time of Suleyman the Magnificient Atjeh actually flip their technological influence to Ottoman (Ottoman get accessed to Indian Ocean and made trading -open border- with the surrounding Sultanate), trading of gun and wave of mercenaries from Ottoman later on made Atjeh able to build Cannon that highly influenced by Ottoman design, and the process start from 16th century until 17th century which resulted the peak of Atjeh military power under the reign of Iskandar Muda which totally check Portuguese power in Malaka strait to passive. Hence it is never be a direct transfer 1 day or 1 year technology if it apply in 16th-17th century world than in ancient world it should be somewhat more harder, technology influence goes naturally by process of trade, and good relation also determine the outcome (Atjeh arguably was a vassal of Ottoman). Hence I always toggle off technology transfer during my game, hope you may consider to change it.

However this is a great game, I have 2 favourite mod RI and this, I really enjoy it so much! thanks for making it for our entertainment!

Indeed, PAE is full of goodies and variety of actions. That what makes the MOD very gratifying. PAE is clearly an underrated mod. There should be more people flocking here. Likely, games set in antiquity is not the bag of everyone. Regarding myself, I am already biased because it is my favorite period.
RI was one MOD that pleased until K-mod entered into the ring. Now, it is just a bloodfest. I understand your position with technology trades (transfer), but that is an important strategic layer to the game. It allows multiple strategic/political decisions without ridiculous cost. Sharing a tech for another or a diplomatic act is not as costly as gold. Hence, it adds a strategic layer because independent of your economy (unlike given gold strains your economy).
In RI, with the crazy K-mod AI's and impossibility to bribe them onto someone or off your back makes the game uncontrollable and unpredictable. It kills the mod. Especially for games EMP+.
Too much Realism over game balance choices may kill a game bluntly.

 

[Hornakhtyotef]

Thank you for your efforts! But I am sorry, I must deny.
I wouldn't say PAE has less Mesopotamian options. PAE includes more about Sumer, Babylon, Assur, Hitties, Phoenicians and Israelites then any other game.
I can't add every big city state of the Bronze Age. Before I'd add Elam, I'd prefer Uruk, Mari or even the kingdom of Saba. And there are some other CIVs that even can be called a civilization and not a single city state: eg Armenia, Thracians,...

And adding a CIV in PAE doesn't mean just adding two leaders and a wonder for them. I need unique buildings (the more the better) and special units too! without that, I don't add a CIV because, as you said, for balance reasons.

I've read it the moment you replied way before, but given that moment it was set (lot of problems with my despotic boss), I didn't want to shout in anger underservedly. When failure upon failure surrounds one, anger wells up.

Is there a manner to aid and inspire you to change your mind?
I mean even the 3D model seems discarded...with some involvements, it is two streets before completed. It took me 7 hours to make it and yet so close to be implemented. Unless, I really don't know what I am talking about. It is true I am no modder, but I've looked around the C++ code a long time (even made a huge thread in the past in Strategy&Tips Civ4 subforum about it under a different username). It may be python and XML for PAE, but it is not that different.
Is the mod size a matter?

 

[Hornakhtyotef]

Tech diffusion: it's already implemented as it is in BTS: Techs become cheaper and cheaper. The more CIVs earn a tech, the cheaper it is for all the others. It's a simple calculation, why should I change this fact and program a new one? Is there a hurry?! I don't think so.

I'm not Haroon, but despite I know which type of tech diffusion you are referring to, the one Haroon mentioned is of a different beast: it is a feature specific of Realism Invictus mod where an AI with which one has Open Border possesses a tech will make the same tech you're currently research discounted.

 

[pie_at]

Ok, thx for your explanation. I've already wondered...

So, ok, if it's only the wonder, then I'd say yes. But only if you put a footing and a shadow into it (like all other CIV buildings). Then I need you opinion of advantages this wonder should have and what requirements it needs.

And don't forget to try it first: add it yourself as a building and test it in a game if the size is correct. then send me the xml settings (ArtInfo).

If you don't mind: I will call it "Dur Untash" as it was the original name.

although it's just a city in form of a ziggurat, it is accepted, so Petra is also added as "wonder" although it's not just a building.

 

[Hornakhtyotef]

Ok, thx for your explanation. I've already wondered...

So, ok, if it's only the wonder, then I'd say yes. But only if you put a footing and a shadow into it (like all other CIV buildings). Then I need you opinion of advantages this wonder should have and what requirements it needs.

And don't forget to try it first: add it yourself as a building and test it in a game if the size is correct. then send me the xml settings (ArtInfo).

If you don't mind: I will call it "Dur Untash" as it was the original name.

although it's just a city in form of a ziggurat, it is accepted, so Petra is also added as "wonder" although it's not just a building.

Basically, what you are saying is:
If I can implement most of it up to the last frontier of the code I can understand, you would accept the implementation.
In other words, a new civ will be implemented as long as the one who proposed invests the time and nearly complete his/her request.

Ok, once I get time in April (boss getting abusive again now with tasks ), I'll look more into it. At least, it has nothing to do with python I think. No knowledge of it. Only C++ and XML.