Pie's Ancient Europe

[brettschmitt]

I am hoping to open a discussion on this matter. My opinion concerns more custom maps than scenarios. I think there is a German forum with a decently active thread on PAE. I wonder what
they think of IMM+ difficulties. I think it would be fun to be able to be able to compete with the AI in the mid-game.

Well, I'd indeed suggest to just use a lower difficulty level. Where is the point? Why do you have to be able to win a deity game? I mean are you a god?

But, as you pointed out, that huge maps might fit better for gods... maybe you should try my Eurasia XXL map. There is plenty of time in the beginning to develop your empire... lots of space.
(only the gamespeed needs some future adjustment. it's too fast in science atm)

The Greeks were so good at their job that after colonizing Sardinia, they went straight up to Norway, settling on that Zinc resource up there. At some point I took Athens and their capital relocated there. Their city maintenance went through the roof!
[...]
Is it normal that sometimes cities settled by the AI dont respect the two tiles minimum spacing between cities?

True. In my Eurasia XL and XXL maps the Greek are always in front like crazy... I already tried to give them as little recources on their starting point as possible but they alway find a way to be great.

In PAE there is only a 1 tile minimum between cities.

 

[Karolus_Procrastinus]

In PAE there is only a 1 tile minimum between cities.

Interesting, I totally missed it. It certainly open up new possibilities.

 

[Hornakhtyotef]

Well, I'd indeed suggest to just use a lower difficulty level. Where is the point? Why do you have to be able to win a deity game? I mean are you a god?

But, as you pointed out, that huge maps might fit better for gods... maybe you should try my Eurasia XXL map. There is plenty of time in the beginning to develop your empire... lots of space.
(only the gamespeed needs some future adjustment. it's too fast in science atm).

I get the point deity could mean unattainable status, but even immortal difficulty is severely harder than what it used to be. I found the exact XML handicap sheet when I played 2 years ago and now I can say that the former immortal level
is the current monarch level. And it was hard to compete even at that time on immortal. From what I have gathered, the AIs have been beefed up due to the certain ones being destroyed or lagging behind, especially the ones with
really weak starting locations. Now, this tide has changed to the opposite direction; the AIs are too strong. Even tiny 2-4 cities AIs beat in the tech race and unit pumping. It is ridiculous.

Monarch is a breeze in the base game; why would it be hardcore in PAE? That's what I am getting at.

 

[brettschmitt]

Monarch is a breeze in the base game; why would it be hardcore in PAE? That's what I am getting at.

That's probably because Pie wants it hardcore...

And I have to admit that I like it! I'm playing a game as Prince atm and it's a lot of fun... don't be shy, try it!
You can play Moarch or Emperor, if you find yourself in good shape ;o)

 

[pie_at]

Thx to you Hornak and Karolus,

why it is so difficult: No, it wasn't me, brettschmitt, I don't want it that hardcore... I play on medium level and I can't win emperor anymore... so why: some PAE fans forced me. They described PAE as too easy. Even in god mode.

That's why I changed the god mode to a "real" god mode and adjusted all other difficulty levels from this.

It is so hard, to define whats difficult enough for each player. So if for some players god is too easy, I have to change that and make it harder. For those, who liked to play god before, they are able to change to lower levels. Where's the problem?

PAE has in fact two kinds of difficulty: the difficulty level and the nation. Playing on a lower difficulty with a weak nation could also be a challenge.

I believe handicaps should be made in a way the highest difficulty is winnable despite hard to wade through it. I understand some may point out to tone down one difficulties or two, but I have enough experience to tell the highest difficulties are hopeless unless having an incredible map.

Yes, I think you can win IMM, but possibly only with a great nation like Rome and perhaps on a small map with small nations and future vassals. But I agree changing the IMM status a bit, if you say, what's ok. Tell me a good setting for IMM and I will change that.

In the Civpedia, the descriptions of the settled food and mine slaves still indicate 3 food and +1 great Merchant point for the first, and 2 prod and +1 Great Engineer point which I guess is just the text hasn't been updated and reflects an older state of the mod.

Oh, thx, I forgot that.

I was searching for sources of Great Merchant point, In order to have a shot at founding Ceres Cult. In my game the
Numidians got to it first, and it never spread (locking me out of that sweet terracotta workshop).

You mean cybele. That's true... I should add this cultist, when researching its tech like the Fertility cult.
I'm just wondering, if the other cultists fit the other way: mithras, indra, isis, cosmo, hellenism, dionysus.

hm... cosmogonist too perhaps...

I love that I can sabotage other Civ plot improvement on critical resources and wage some kind of covert wars against my opponents and it could work even better with this mod component where spies get back to the closest city instead of the capital: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/lemons-spy-mod.464099/.

Ok, I have a look. but perhaps it's in the dll.

(I tried personally compiling a new .dll with this mod. It works but it interfere with the loading of the civilization for the scenarios, cutting the list in the middle. I figure PAE VI .dll is no the original one).

yes, the dll in PAE is changed in the amount of nations: 52

 

[westinator]

heh
---------
I love this mod, and I'm glad you keep developing it

 

[pie_at]

I can't do better....

 

[Karolus_Procrastinus]

So here is a few things I took note of while playing.I find myself using the Civpedia quite often. It is minor thing admittedly, I could be wrong, but I like to be helpful . I hope I give enough details to be clear.

In the Pedia:

• In the hamlet improvement page, the link for "village" in its description leads to the auto-building "village", not the improvement.
• For spear units, the link "chariots" in their descriptions leads to the chariots tech page and not the unit list or the unit "chariot" (maybe because "chariots" was meant for "chariot units").
• unused unit lists (air, armored, helicopter, gunpowder) still appears.
• In the "Settlement & province" game concepts page, the description if the provincial capital indicate it needs 5 cities whereas in-game it is 6.
• One provincial governor unit I had was "commercially oriented". But since the line was too long and did not wrap around in the UI unit box in the bottom left, I couldn't see exactly which bonus it was. The pedia page doesn't list it.
• The Hint page on exhibitional fighting and Gladiators is outdated on some points.
• The written quote for astrology tech doesn't match the audio.
• Explorer Units can draw maps for a price, but I didn't find any details in the Pedia on how it works precisely.
  
• Civ UU for provincial governor have "replacement for provincial governor" in their description, which link to the hint page and not the unit.

For the XXL Map:

• The "bank" terrain type is used only once in Ireland (gives one less than coast). There also exist a "ford" terrain type, both seem to be unused in scenarios. I am curious for what use they were meant for.
• The Dam of Marib requires stone. There is no stone at start-date near Saba. I know quarries can have a chance to find some bu but since it is an earl wonder, the timing might be tight (Is there a file that details the mechanism or spawn chances for ressources from improvements ? I'd like to know if I spammed enough hunting camps to catch castors ).
• In hunting camp and lumber camp descriptions, what does "Gives the terrain a higher chance to spread" means?
• In the Caspian Sea, only the southern half is filled with ocean terrain in the middle, while the northern half is all coast.
• In a few place there no coast tile between ocean and land (Malta is an example), making the transition visually broken.
• There is a coast corridor between Crimea and Anatolia. Should there be the same kind of corridor between Crete and Cyrenaica?
• Along the Western coastline of the Red Sea, NNE of Meroe, One Mountain blocks the passage along the coast and have to be walked around inland. I am just wondering if this is intended.

For the gameplay:

• Since barbarians are present for the get go with cities, they sometimes reach some techs first, which is only an issue with tech that awards something once like units or great persons (or I just have to be quicker!).
• Hunters start with free Wildlife promotion. March promotion hase the same effect. Should Wildlife be reserved to animals and Hunters start with March instead?

All these remarks might be a side effect of how I like to play and enjoy the game and the mod in my own way. I am open to the fact that there might be reasons that I missed for why things are one way and not the other, since some of them would affect gameplay beyond simple visual aesthetics.

 

[brettschmitt]

For the XXL Map:

1. The "bank" terrain type is used only once in Ireland (gives one less than coast). There also exist a "ford" terrain type, both seem to be unused in scenarios. I am curious for what use they were meant for.

2. The Dam of Marib requires stone. There is no stone at start-date near Saba. I know quarries can have a chance to find some bu but since it is an earl wonder, the timing might be tight

3. In hunting camp and lumber camp descriptions, what does "Gives the terrain a higher chance to spread" means?

4a. In a few place there no coast tile between ocean and land (Malta is an example), making the transition visually broken.

4b. There is a coast corridor between Crimea and Anatolia. Should there be the same kind of corridor between Crete and Cyrenaica?

4c. Along the Western coastline of the Red Sea, NNE of Meroe, One Mountain blocks the passage along the coast and have to be walked around inland. I am just wondering if this is intended.

Thanks for your feedback, Karolus!

1. These special water tiles will be used for navigable rivers. A feature that might come in the future.
-> that was not intended and will be removed.

2. Ok, Saba will get some stone in the next version.

3. On lumber camps cedarwood might spawn and on hunting camps game animals...

4. At some areas there is still coast even 2 tiles far from land. I just think it looks better and gives a bit more variety. E.g. large river deltas (like the Nil) are having a bit more coast...
But I will look over it again.


Again: Thanks for the feedback! That is exactly what I need to find all the little mistakes still existing on my maps...

 

[Karolus_Procrastinus]

Again: Thanks for the feedback! That is exactly what I need to find all the little mistakes still existing on my maps...

It is my pleasure! I like that scale of the map which allows a great degree of geographical accuracy.
About the coast thing (4a), I was speaking of these two map artefacts that I found (Malta and Lisbon):

and

And about 4b, I had in it my head that deep sea was impassable (which it isn't, Just 3 mov. point), my mistake!

 

[brettschmitt]

Oh... ok.
That's Ocean where Coast should be... thx. Will be fixed

 

[pie_at]

So here is a few things I took note of while playing.I find myself using the Civpedia quite often. It is minor thing admittedly, I could be wrong, but I like to be helpful . I hope I give enough details to be clear.

Great! You are the first I know, who uses the Civpedia like this

In the hamlet improvement page, the link for "village" in its description leads to the auto-building "village", not the improvement.

I just checked that and I am sorry. The mouse over help text is written in the dll. And BTS just follows the name of an object and links to the first query result of all the stuff. Seems building titles and links come first. I can't change that.

For spear units, the link "chariots" in their descriptions leads to the chariots tech page and not the unit list or the unit "chariot" (maybe because "chariots" was meant for "chariot units").

The same problem as above.

unused unit lists (air, armored, helicopter, gunpowder) still appears.

yes, I am afraid something in the dll won't work (or python links) if I delete the basic types of the standard game... I'll check that.

In the "Settlement & province" game concepts page, the description if the provincial capital indicate it needs 5 cities whereas in-game it is 6.

thx, it seems it depends on map size, so I changed 5 to x.

One provincial governor unit I had was "commercially oriented". But since the line was too long and did not wrap around in the UI unit box in the bottom left, I couldn't see exactly which bonus it was. The pedia page doesn't list it.

oh. damn. but it is written in the pedia of the governor.

The Hint page on exhibitional fighting and Gladiators is outdated on some points.

thx, I changed the gladiator concepts.

The written quote for astrology tech doesn't match the audio.

but it's the same in meaning

Explorer Units can draw maps for a price, but I didn't find any details in the Pedia on how it works precisely.

right, but there is no need for extra explanation, just follow the instructions of its pop ups

Civ UU for provincial governor have "replacement for provincial governor" in their description, which link to the hint page and not the unit.

unfortunately the same with the "word" in BTS

In hunting camp and lumber camp descriptions, what does "Gives the terrain a higher chance to spread" means?

and it can stand for the emergence of a forest next to the camp's plot

Hunters start with free Wildlife promotion. March promotion hase the same effect. Should Wildlife be reserved to animals and Hunters start with March instead?

oh, in German it also means being familiar to survive in nature. Perhaps there is a better word in english for that?

 

[Karolus_Procrastinus]

Thanks for your detailed response.

Great! You are the first I know, who uses the Civpedia like this .

It is a great resource and I like to understand the new mechanics in the game (in order to turn them to my advantage).

For most of the things, they are minor nitpicks, but who knows, someday I might find something that can be fixed without diving in the DLL !

 

[pie_at]

never mind,

I can proudly present a new patch version: 6.3.1 !

changes will be listed in its thread.

 

[westinator]

• Nooooooo don't make Deity easier! The AI is already atrocious at fighting wars, so give them some sort of offensive advantage in combat - make it easier for them to take cities, or something.
• AI in my games never spread grapes
• Does persia not get aqueducts?

• this made me laugh, no need to change because it's funny and insignificant, but prairie dogs are a kind of squirrel

 

[pie_at]

- Deity: sorry, but I got the message, that even deity and immortal should be winable. yes, and why not? it's a game. shall make more fun than challenge.
- AI and grapes: ok, I'll check that
- Persian aqueducts: I couldn't find anything about Persian Aqueducts. Just Qanats (2000 BC). these are irrigation canals, which can be built by Persians. I could rename irrigation canals to qanats, but it's the same...

 

[brettschmitt]

this made me laugh, no need to change because it's funny and insignificant, but prairie dogs are a kind of squirrel

Made me lough too... that's a good one!

But no kidding... don't mess with these killer beasts

 

[westinator]

What are turn times like for people? This save takes my PC ~145 seconds to play the AI's moves, maybe somebody could compare?

 

[brettschmitt]

What are turn times like for people? This save takes my PC ~145 seconds to play the AI's moves, maybe somebody could compare?

Tried out your save and I have about 2 min this and the next turn.
There are a lot of things going on in the world though. So, it's not surprisig, I guess...

But we have a discussion about sudden turn time impacts in the german forum atm. Maybe there might come some improvements someday.


Anyway... I would say PAE runs not bad for such an old game

 

[westinator]

Thanks for checking. I'm probably gonna stick to the small or mini maps until/unless something changes.

as for the discussion about forum activity here https://www.civforum.de/showthread.php?107264-PAE-VI/page96, it could be americans who lurk with google translate (like me!),

and the mod also just received a mention from Scott Alexander of SlateStarCodex here https://slatestarcodex.com/2020/05/07/classified-thread-8/#comment-894658, which for me is almost a paradigm-shiftingly unexpected confluence of two of my interests.