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Piety/Honor Songhai Strat - Not as bad as you think

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by redwings1340, Dec 18, 2013.

  1. redwings1340

    redwings1340 Emperor

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    I've been trying to get away from the standard tradition/rationalism strategy, so I've been playing around with other social policies to try to get them to work. I'm playing emperor to allow myself a little bit of breathing room, but so far I've been able to use these policies really well.

    Starting honor allowed me to kill off a ton of barbarian camps, and with the UA, this kept my economy afloat while making myself a nice archer/composite bow army. I built my first shrine after starting piety as my second policy, got about the third pantheon and second religion. With the mud pyramid mosque being a desirable building anyway, I used the faith and build speed for awesomeness, and soon I got one of the first religions, as well as one of the two religions on my continent. I still got a low t-80s national college on two cities, placing my third one directly afterwards.

    Having a religion helped me out diplomatically, as everyone on my continent but Korea adopted my religion and became my friend, while Korea is a scapegoat just so they have someone to dislike. My religion is basically set up with a faith gaining pantheon, stronger and cheaper missionaries (with 3 spread religious wonders), tithe for keeping up my income and allowing me to pay for my army, and now jesuit education to allow me to get up education buildings super quickly. Since my continent is converted, I've also been creating holy sites. Quick question: if you get new deal, does the culture, gold, and faith of holy sites increase by 4?

    After I completed piety, I went down honor a few more times for the +50% experience. I did take the opener of rationalism, but my tech level is on par or above every other civ at the moment. I haven't played this game perfectly, as I missed out on a perfect petra city (4 desert hills, lots of normal desert, with lake victoria) by 7ish turns, and I tried to use my xbow army to conquer Korea, but found the capital too tough as it is costal, has an awkward approach angle and I'm landlocked. Still, my army got some nice experience there, and I only lost one swordsman during the invasion, so it wasn't a complete failure.

    So, yeah, honor/piety actually has a bit of synnergy to it if you play it correctly with a good warmongering/religion civ. I don't think it's as good as tradition, but I've been moderately surprised at my results of this strategy.
     
  2. GoStu

    GoStu King

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    I've had some success doing this as both the Songhai and the Aztecs. The Aztecs get the advantage if twice the Culture, although they don't get the extra gold or the mud pyramid mosque. The Aztecs also have a stronger UU for this.

    I find it works best with an oversized map though, so you have more space for Barbarians.
     
  3. Adjuvant

    Adjuvant Emperor

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    I enjoyed reading this. Good job.
     
  4. georgie

    georgie Warlord

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    I believe only faith will be +4 with New Deal from Holy Sites.
     
  5. GhostSalsa

    GhostSalsa Emperor

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    Yeah only the faith gets +4. Culture and Gold yields from piety holy sites are already so good though.

    Hm, I did an honor open on Songhai on Immortal but the AI really poaches encampments quickly on Immortal, it was a struggle even to get kills. OTOH the gold-for-kills bonus is a lot better later on immortal, but that game didn't make it that far. Right now Honor opens are my preferred experiment. Usually I don't mix Piety with anything because of the importance of those closers...
     
  6. redwings1340

    redwings1340 Emperor

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    Aww, that's too bad about new deal and holy sites. It would have been worth getting freedom just for that policy later in the game. I suppose this means I can continue policy experiments with autocracy later then, and I'll try to see if I can kill off other continents to spread my religion further. I guess this means I'll need a costal city very soon. I was originally planning on Korea's capital to be my costal city, but I'm not going to capture that, so I'll have to settle one of my own.
     
  7. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    I played a full piety immortal wine start with Ethiopia. OCC to NC, so kinda bad.

    What caught my attention was I finished the tree on t103 which is about the same time as if I open straight Tradition with out too many extra culture points thrown in.

    Of course, my faith was out of this world.
     
  8. Resipsa

    Resipsa King

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    Straight Piety works well with Songhai. Mud Mosques provide the culture that you miss from Tradition and Liberty and I actually pulled a domination game with it on Deity but my dirt was really good. Had Tears of the Gods and lots of Diamonds as Luxuries but TBH Piety is a weak tree Religion is too dictated by your starting dirt. Piety/Commerce/Autocracy is a fun mix and Songhai is a Civ that suits it well.
     
  9. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    I have another Donghai tactic.

    Tradiberty.

    Get Tradition opener, go Liberty to the Settler, try to get 4 cities with monuments ASAP, always building shrine after monument. Get Free Culture Building policy from Tradition while having the right technologies.

    Congratulations, you just got 4 Mud Mosques absolutely free. You should become a powerhouse in both culture and faith.
     
  10. Resipsa

    Resipsa King

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    You'll spent 2 or 3 policies and alter your build order to get 400 hammers around the t100 mark? Meh maybe.

    Just as an aside you can probably finish liberty in about the same time and get a GE that you can use to rush the build a Wonder like the HS or MP so you'll get the "free hammers" there too
     
  11. Antarion

    Antarion Prince

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    i cant understand this problems with immortal. i go for camps as songhai or germany as quickly as possible even without honor done. atleast build 3 units as first stuff before u go for eco. with germany its fun when the snowball starts with units enough so u often are close you the limit, as songhai u can stop building units when u got enough to quickly reach critical camps.

    on quick speed the first 50-60 turns are you aim to hunt camps. 2 scouts are enough for a warrior camp on flat terrain or an archer in rough terrain. this rule is important, because u often start in rough terrain and u wont have horse units in your first 20 turns.:p


    for social policies i normally open tradition or liberty for eco purposes, tradition if u have really small landmass and not enough luxuries (like 3-4) and liberty if i got the space to settle atleast 5 cities, rather 6-8 and like 6 or more luxuries. honor and piety ofc too, u dont need to go to deep in any of these 3 trees, but to finish one before reaching rationalism is often the best choice. while tradition/liberty are the best eco booster, honor is cleary for easier wars and piety is the joker tree (u can go for everything and some unique bonuses like tourism early on if going wide)
     
  12. sendos

    sendos Immortal

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    I don't think that works in BNW. I mean, if you can build mud pyramid mosques and amphiteatres in BNW and you get legalism, which building will be built for free? It will be a amphitheatre though, right? Someone should confirm this.

    Also, thanks for the heads up, OP. I am yearning for a new approach and I think the following civs are ideal for piety/honor combo: Aztecs, Songhai, Mongols (maybe), Germany, Rome (maybe) and Maya (maybe). If you go semi-wide, you'll be divided between holy sites and jesuit education but holy sites will ascertain your ideology, which is likely going to be autocracy for this combination.
     
  13. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    Except those policies are good policies so I can't say I'm spending them only to get those hammers because they have multiple benefits. Going tall&wide at the same time is fun too, so I enjoy Tradiberty (I also often use the no science penalty per city mod, which makes it more viable).

    I wouldn't call it altering my build order - Monuments are pretty much always the first thing I get (unless I really need a Library, Archer or I am Mayans, then I get a Pyramid instead), and - while shrines I don't pick as often - I also get them from time to time. It's only a slight alteration, really.

    Also it's impossible to finish liberty in about the same time, unless "about the same time" means xx turns later. It's just not going to happen. I'm getting +4 culture from my capital and +1 from other cities while your Liberty-only tactic is getting you only +1 from your capital and other cities. It's highly unlikely for you to get 6 policies in about the same time as I when I only need 5.


    Good point. I usually alter my tech slightly (...okay, so alterations are sliiiightly bigger than I said before) to avoid getting Amphitheatre tech until I've gotten Mud Mosques from legalism, but I'm not sure if Amphitheatre or Mud Mosque is built when both are available. I just thought the game would choose Amphitheatre and avoided the tech if I decided to use this tactic.
     
  14. Resipsa

    Resipsa King

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    That's why I said meh maybe
     
  15. Camikaze

    Camikaze Administrator Administrator

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    Moderator Action: Moved to Strategy & Tips; a more appropriate venue for threads discussing a strategy. :)
     
  16. Arachnofiend

    Arachnofiend Perturbed Pugilist

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    Congratulations, you just wasted half of the benefit of MPM's. If I were to go Tradition I'd still want the Monuments to be free and hard build the MPM's. Shoot, if I were that determined to be optimal I'd take Piety as my filler between my starting tree (Liberty because really it's the better tree for the Songhai) and Rationalism and not take a step further once I get into the Renaissance.
     
  17. Adjuvant

    Adjuvant Emperor

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    This isn't part of the thread topic. We all understand tradition and liberty are good policy trees. The guy was talking about synergy with honor and piety and you tossed about with this mess.
     
  18. Petiscator

    Petiscator King

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    I've seen a lot of people on this forum talking about Holy Sites spam... is it really that good?
     
  19. redwings1340

    redwings1340 Emperor

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    It's not something I would normally do, but in this game I chose to focus my religion on creating better and cheaper missionaries, tithe, and jesuit education. I was also in a position where my entire continent was converted to my religion save Korea, who has a religion of their own that they aren't spreading. With the newest science buildings built, and nowhere I needed to send missionaries to, the only way I could keep my faith down and not generate great prophets would be to buy a ton of useless missionaries and inquisitors.

    So, no, I doubt it's optimal, but in this game there wasn't really much else I could do, and I think it's better than stockpiling faith.
     
  20. Resipsa

    Resipsa King

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    It used to be in GnK I haven't done much in BNW with it
     

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