pineappledan, HungryForFood, & Recursive's New Beliefs

[pineappledan]

I’m torn, because you don’t need any faith investment to make Divine Inheritance give 20% to all yields on GAs. It’s hard to compare to other faith sinks like how much a Faith-purchased GP costs as well, because this is like a faith purchased GP AND your entire founder belief. I think the power is still probably okay, because you aren’t using that faith to spread or enhance, or do any other worthwhile things.

 

[ridjack]

Yeah, I don't have any firm opinions one way or the other yet, except that it's definitely a solid pick for someone who isn't planning to do anything else with their faith. It does pretty much require you to be completely committed to it.

If I wanted to see anything change on it, and I'm not convinced that I do, I would say that maybe the cost should scale slowly every time it's purchased, to act as a sort of soft cap.

It's definitely something I want to play with more. Like I kinda want to try the Timurids with it; get God of War for a pantheon, Orders for follower and just go nuts. Or Byzantium could do that but also take Hero Worship. Or maybe India if they ever get their passive pressure tuned to actually be useful.

 

[pineappledan]

Lol, yeah, it's perfect for Timur and Morocco, lots of +All Yields bonuses

 

[ridjack]

The option to Perform Challa Ritual shows up, greyed out and unselectable, without having Libations.

 

[pineappledan]

I would need a dummy policy in order to block them from the UI I think. That was going to be the first thing I tried if you felt a max for Challas should be added.

 

[Rosete]

Is there a change for zealotry that was not documented by this mod? I realised that there seems to be a hidden cooldown between faith purchase units with faith. For example, after I faith buy a unit, the faith cost next to all units disapeared. I VP with zealotry you can instantly spawn an army given enough faith, but with this mod there seemed to be a hidden cooldown that stops me from doing so.

 

[ridjack]

Is there a change for zealotry that was not documented by this mod? I realised that there seems to be a hidden cooldown between faith purchase units with faith. For example, after I faith buy a unit, the faith cost next to all units disapeared. I VP with zealotry you can instantly spawn an army given enough faith, but with this mod there seemed to be a hidden cooldown that stops me from doing so.

The faith cost disappears when you don't have enough. It's not a cooldown, you just don't have enough faith for the next unit.

 

[pineappledan]

There was a change, yes. I had to use a different piece of code to give Zealotry its faith-purchased units. The diplomatic units you can purchase from Nuncios are also land units, so Zealotry was allowing you to faith purchase them with the old method. It's probably not as clean, but it still does allow for unit faith purchases.

 

[pineappledan]

I'm very excited to announce the release of 2 new founder beliefs:

(Founder) - City of God

Can build the Sacred Garden Wonder (+3 +5; +5 Food from all Holy Sites)
Gain 10 whenever your Holy City gains a Citizen, scaling with the number of Cities following your religion (max 25 cities)​

(Founder) - Earthly Paradise

Can build the Place of Truth Wonder (+2 +6; +10%Production towards Buildings in the City; +5 from Holy Sites)
10 When a City constructs a Building, scaling with Era.
Gain 25 whenever you construct a World Wonder, scaling with number of Cities following your Religion (max 25 Cities).
​

With this, the number of new beliefs this mod adds (net of base VP beliefs it removes) is:

2 Pantheons
3 Founders (4 new, 1 removed)
6 Followers (8 new, 2 removed)
2 Enhancers
2 Reformations
​

That brings the total beliefs to:

24 Pantheons
12 Founders
22 Followers
11 Enhancers
11 Reformations
​

Credit goes to @Recursive for the new DLL integration for the two new beliefs. Thank you!

 

[pineappledan]

I would still like to add in 2 more followers, 1 more enhancer, and 1 more Reformation. Then we will have the full compliment of max 12 religions.

So what kind of beliefs do people feel are still missing from the game? What would people like to see added?

I think adding back in some ability that lets you use the pantheon of the second-place religion would be good. That was a Vanilla ability from a policy that there is still code to track for, but nothing uses it right now. It could be good as a follower belief, since most pantheons are localized, or it could be a reformation belief, if something else was added to it

There is the unused Firaxis icon for the Mayan Temple-Pyramid:

Could be used for a Meso-American religious building, we don't have one of those yet. What kinds of bonuses could it give?

I think we're generally missing an enhancer that confers higher Resistance to your religion, rather than giving a bonus to spread. We have Inquisition which empowers your active resistance, and we have Prophecy which halves the power of enemy inquisitors on your followers. Is there a belief we could craft around Passive resistance in your religion's cities, with maybe some extra bonus on top?

I had originally thought that Some sort of Espionage bonus would be a great Reformation belief, because Spies are a tech-locked ability like the WC and other things that Reformation beliefs augment. With the current system up in the air, and people not liking how spies work, I'm hesitant to add a belief that unlocks a new ability, or improves spies until the espionage system is more settled. Are there some other late-game systems that a reformation could augment that are not explored by a belief already? What do people think would make for a good Reformation belief?

 

[merill]

I would still like to add in 2 more followers, 1 more enhancer, and 1 more Reformation. Then we will have the full compliment of max 12 religions.

So what kind of beliefs do people feel are still missing from the game? What would people like to see added?

Maybe something to avoid the religion being wiped out. Like "can't be reduced below 30% followers in a city by natural pressure" (inquisitors still works)

For followers.. maybe something if the city is garrisoned? Or a unit limit every 2 cities? Or a bonus to GP tiles?

 

[pineappledan]

Maybe something to avoid the religion being wiped out. Like "can't be reduced below 30% followers in a city by natural pressure" (inquisitors still works)

Interesting. Like a bite and hold that rewards you for spreading early

Martyrdom
Once reached, Religious pressure cannot be reduced below 30% of total pressure, except by Foreign Inquisitors. Gain 75 Faith and Culture for each Follower lost to foreign Inquisitiors.

So if you have a city with 10 000 total pressure, and your religion is 3 000 of that, and a foreign missionary comes and spreads 1000 to that city, That's now 11 000 total pressure in that city, but you only have 3000 of it, and you dip to 27% overall.
So the city adds enough pressure to your own religion so that it stays at 30%, which is ((11,000-3,000) / (1-0.3)) - 11,000 == (8,000 / 0.7) - 11,000 == 429 free pressure in that city

For followers.. maybe something if the city is garrisoned?

Already in there:

(Pantheon) - God of Storms
2 in Cities with a Garrison.
Pillaging a tile provides 15Faith and Production. Does not scale with Era.

(Follower) - Martial Arts
Melee and Gun Units trained in this City receive the Warrior Monk Promotion

Warrior Monk: +20% Defense, +30% XP, +30% Religious Pressure when garrisoned in a City​

 

[Hinin]

There is the unused Firaxis icon for the Mayan Temple-Pyramid:

Could be used for a Meso-American religious building, we don't have one of those yet.

We could also use the Kiva from the Kachina beliefs (mostly Pueblo people).

I think adding back in some ability that lets you use the pantheon of the second-place religion would be good. That was a Vanilla ability from a policy that there is still code to track for, but nothing uses it right now. It could be good as a follower belief, since most pantheons are localized, or it could be a reformation belief, if something else was added to it

It's a really good idea for a Reformation belief (too powerful on a Follower). I think it could use the name for the phenomenon where a pantheon merges with another one (like what the Romans did with the Greek and Egyptian pantheons). We just have to find it.

I think we're generally missing an enhancer that confers higher Resistance to your religion, rather than giving a bonus to spread. We have Inquisition which empowers your active resistance, and we have Prophecy which halves the power of enemy inquisitors on your followers. Is there a belief we could craft around Passive resistance in your religion's cities, with maybe some extra bonus on top?

We lack a production religious building. There is only the Synagogue right now (+ the Pagoda, but that doesn't count). Maybe a city healing effect in addition, to really focus on the "survivalism" aspect ?

I had originally thought that Some sort of Espionage bonus would be a great Reformation belief, because Spies are a tech-locked ability like the WC and other things that Reformation beliefs augment. With the current system up in the air, and people not liking how spies work, I'm hesitant to add a belief that unlocks a new ability, or improves spies until the espionage system is more settled. Are there some other late-game systems that a reformation could augment that are not explored by a belief already? What do people think would make for a good Reformation belief?

I agree we should wait for the dust to settle before thinking about intermingling the spy system with other things. Right now, I see maybe interactions with Luxury / Strategic Resources as a potential candidate. Also, did you make a Reformation about Gold buildings ?

 

[pineappledan]

It's a really good idea for a Reformation belief (too powerful on a Follower). I think it could use the name for the phenomenon where a pantheon merges with another one (like what the Romans did with the Greek and Egyptian pantheons). We just have to find it.

I don't know if it is?
First off, there's chance that you could get a pantheon in that city that does nothing unless you're the main belief holder, like Goddess of Beauty, or God-King.
Secondly, you didn't get to choose it, ergo, it must have been something less suitable than what you already picked for your own pantheon. Obviously a bonus to quarries isn't as strong as the bonus to mines that you picked, or else you would have picked the quarries pantheon.

We lack a production religious building. There is only the Synagogue right now (+ the Pagoda, but that doesn't count). Maybe a city healing effect in addition, to really focus on the "survivalism" aspect ?

The Sweat Lodge gives healing in the city. I did also add a production-focused reformation belief

 

[Rekk]

It's a really good idea for a Reformation belief (too powerful on a Follower)

Are follower beliefs generally less powerful than pantheon beliefs?

 

[Hinin]

Are follower beliefs generally less powerful than pantheon beliefs?

Depends on the synergies, but in good conditions a Pantheon can add a lot of yields without needing a lot of investment, while Followers either require you an investment in Faith (to buy a religious building or to convert it) or don't scale very well.

 

[Milae]

Suggestions: - Instant Yields from historic events
- Instant Yields from building a unit
- Yield per turn for every cs friend, double for ally
- Some conversion of Tourism into faith, probably faith per X Tourism produced in city
- Tbh for this we could simplify the FaithFromXScience and Gold beliefs into FaithPerXYield belief where you add the yield in as an option

 

[pineappledan]

- Instant Yields from building a unit
- Yield per turn for every cs friend, double for ally

I could imagine 1 or both of these being used for a redesign of the Order

Teocalli
2
1Flat Supply
+50 City Hit Points
+25% Pressure of Religious Majority emanating from this city
+10% resistance to conversion
+15 XP for Military units produced in this city.
+3 Faith in this City when you kill a unit on Empire
-1Unhappiness from / Distress

Order
233
+20% to City ranged attack
+25% Pressure of Religious Majority emanating from this city
+10% resistance to conversion
When you construct a Unit in this City, gain Faith and Gold equal to 15% of the Unit's Production cost.
Military Units constructed in this city gain the Morale promotion
-1Unhappiness from / Distress

I do worry about the per CS friend/Ally abilities, because they are extremely powerful with proper investment. In a Diplo-focused game, the Chancery and Wire Service can each give 20+ and , plus their / bonuses for friends. They are generally hard to balance for exclusive bonuses, because they can scale wide and reinforce an existing lead.

- Tbh for this we could simplify the FaithFromXScience and Gold beliefs into FaithPerXYield belief where you add the yield in as an option

Well, we already have 2 and they're the code we have, so that's probably enough without pushing for more.

 

[Hinin]

eocalli
2
1Flat Supply
+50 City Hit Points
+25% Pressure of Religious Majority emanating from this city
+10% resistance to conversion
+15 XP for Military units produced in this city.
+3 Faith in this City when you kill a unit on Empire
-1Unhappiness from / Distress

Order
233
+20% to City ranged attack
+25% Pressure of Religious Majority emanating from this city
+10% resistance to conversion
When you construct a Unit in this City, gain Faith and Gold equal to 15% of the Unit's Production cost.
Military Units constructed in this city gain the Morale promotion
-1Unhappiness from / Distress

These seems very good to me. More diversity for militarist beliefs, and a way to have wide "Morale" back while balancing things.

 

[HeroOfTheSword]

What about a belief that grants you the ability to buy unique units from Military City States within the game you're playing? Possibly an enhancer belief? Someone else posted the idea in the forum so I can't lay claim to it, but I think it could be a fun one incorporated in this mod maybe?