pineappledan's Unit Tweaks

[pineappledan]

This mod is to test out two proposals for VP unit balance:

1. the replacement of the spear line's anti-cavalry bonus with formation, giving a 3rd option for XP investment similar to the Swordsman's option of Cover, and giving them a secondary open terrain bonus, which is historically relevant and flavorful
2. The alteration of the skrimisher unit line in order to focus on rapid deployment, high mobility and harrassment, by removing the movement penalties and reducing their ranged combat strength

Formation I & II:
Bonus vs mounted increased to 33%
Defense in Open terrain increased to 15%

Spear/Melee unit line
Anti-Cavalry promotion removed from Melee Spear line (only Naresuan's Elephant has it now)
All Spearman/Pikeman/Tercio/fusilier get Formation I for free

Skirmisher unit line
Movement penalty does not affect CS/RCS, and is only applied to chariot units
Movement penalty renamed to 'Beam Axle'
Movement penalty no longer affects floodplains

Chariots have 4 Moves and movement Penalty
Skirmisher/Heavy Skirmisher/Cuirassier/Cavalry have 5 moves and no movement penalty
Naga Malla has 3 moves and no movement penalty
Light Tank has 4 moves and no movement penalty
Helicopter has 6 moves and hover

Skirmisher unit line's CS/RCS changed. Generally, CS is increased and RCS is greatly decreased
Chariot Archer: 8 CS / 8 RCS
War Chariot: 9 CS / 9 RCS
Skirmisher: 12 CS / 7 RCS
Horse archer: 13 CS / 9 RCS
Heavy skirmisher: 18 CS / 14 RCS
Camel archer: 20 CS / 16 RCS
Cuirassier: 26 CS / 20 RCS
Hussar: 28 CS / 21 RCS
War Elephant: 30 CS / 30 RCS (3 moves)
Cavalry: 40 CS / 31 RCS
Berber cavalry: 42 CS / 34 RCS
Comanche rider: 41 CS / 35 RCS
Cossack: 44 CS / 37 RCS
Light tank: 58 CS / 58 RCS
Helicopter gunship: 70 CS / 70 RCS

Mongolia:
With the increased mobility of skirmisher units, worry has been expressed that +2 moves on Mongolia would exceed the ability of the AI.
 - Mongol Terror changed from (+2 moves & ZOC) to (+1 Attack with no RCS penalty)

4UC compatibility:
Carpentom: 5 Moves / 10 CS / 8 RCS -- Movement Penalty
Pancerny: 5 Moves / 22 CS / 15 RCS
Hashemite Raider: 4 Moves / 58 CS / 58 RCS

 

[pineappledan]

V2 is now posted. Includes compatibility with 4UC and my own custom mods (Macedon and Khmer UUs given formation I)

 

[Stalker0]

I'm going to try this, but one thing that struck me right off the bat. Why does the light tank only get 4 movement? I get that it loses the rough terrain penalty, but since I know verisimilitude is a big concern to you it seems weird that a tank is slower than Calvary.

 

[pineappledan]

I'm going to try this, but one thing that struck me right off the bat. Why does the light tank only get 4 movement?

Because WWI light/medium tanks weren't fast. Whippets were the fastest tank of the war and had a top speed of 8mph (13kmph), a casual jog. a Renault FT had a top speed of 5.5 mph (9 kmph), a brisk walking pace.

By WWII, tanks did get kinda fast, and an Abrams tank can move at 45 mph (72 kmph), but I think people forget how bad internal combustion engines were before the 60s.

 

[pineappledan]

1) Unbeatable Raider: I could pillage what I wanted, when I wanted. Nothing was out of reach, I was even able to dig into the backyard and get some goodies there. So with this change they are definitely a raider's raider....hehe this is Denmark's new favorite unit.

2) Terrible City Hitter: With walls my units were doing 4-5 damage, so not worth even bothering to attack the city. So your cities are safe from these things.

3) Alright Unit Hitter: I was doing ~17 damage to a spearman, and did find a few spots with rough terrain that I was able to abuse. With the damage I wasn't doing a lot to spearmen. My biggest benefit was killing stray catapults that were out of position.

Interested to hear someone's feedback on mongolia with my changes. As you say, it should be hard to kill these units -- in my own game I kept getting lightning bolted out of Fog of War -- but the low damage potential makes them a unit that doesn't die much, but doesn't kill much either. With Mongolia's +1 Move/+1 Attack change, they can get the damage high enough that these units can really murder people.

 

[Kim Dong Un]

I really like the new spear line. Especially going authority, it's sweet having options that are practical and straight to the point. It's nice to simply specialize formation II units for mounted and open terrain defense before iron comes online - (long)swords can then soak up ranged with cover II while my landshneckts pillage and attack cities via the drill line. Once they all merge in renaissance, I'm left with a diverse and versatile group of tercios at my disposal that are ready to be utilized in accordance with my needs.

Regardless of how the skirmisher changes unfold, I'm probably going to stick with your spear changes.

 

[pineappledan]

I'd hoped VP wouldn't try so hard to justify this mod's existence.

With the Skirmisher line being a complete atrocity now -- and with various amounts of feedback from playtesters -- I'm implementing a few tweaks and improvements.

Keep in mind, these tweaks aren't meant to be a revelation, they're just supposed to make the skirmisher line a bit more different from archers while still being playable. I never promised anyone I would cure cancer with these changes.

 

[General_Drax]

I like the fine tuning coming from your mods.

About spear line: vs specific civs (like Songhai) the nerf is really huge. I'd test more but a knight unit in open vs pikemen (not fortified) should at least take a lot of damage and not simply roll over it.

Skirmishers are in a good shape right now.

Thank you !

 

[pineappledan]

A pike man vs a knight in open with my mod is +48%, only 2% less than the old 50%. At least with my mod, you can double that to 86% with formation II immediately, if you’re worried about enemy knights

 

[General_Drax]

Ok. Maybe I had to factor other variants in that case like unit experience (i.e. fresh pikeman with veteran knight) and other bonus/malus (religion, anti-wormonger favor, etc).

I'll take a closer look: 2% difference was not the culprit of defeat.

 

[KittyKat3120]

Urm... The units from your more UC mod doesn't get the promotions that were mentioned for me...

 

[pineappledan]

Could be a mod loading order problem. Go into your mods folder, open up the unit tweaks .modinfo file, press save, and try loading in again.

What unit isn't getting what promotion?

 

[KittyKat3120]

Could be a mod loading order problem. Go into your mods folder, open up the unit tweaks .modinfo file, press save, and try loading in again.

What unit isn't getting what promotion?

I tried doing the saving thing but it's still not working...

All the units mentioned in the units file like netherland's unique pikeman not getting the formation promotion and poland pancery having it's stats changed

 

[pineappledan]

There was a syntax error in the sql file. re-download, or replace the comma with a semicolon on line 130.

Thank you for catching that.

 

[Kim Dong Un]

I'm 200 turns through a Mongolia (3/4UC) run (Emperor) with a couple notes. They are fun and very strong, but I don't think mounted ranged with logistics automatically makes you invincible. I still lost my fair share of units, and it took me almost 150 turns over the course of 3 wars to secure my first vassal. This is despite having the ridiculous synergy of Goddess of Protection and Fountain of Youth, on top of the bonus healing from my Khan. I had a wine monopoly that got online late because I rushed horses while being surrounded by several CS, but I pursued an opportunistic war(s) against a forward settling Germany that dragged out, causing me to miss early tributes. Each game is different and the various factors can play out in so many ways that I wouldn't say Temujin is on some God tier of his own. His momentum is no different than the same snowballs that you can build up with any other warmonger. Now that I've had my power spike online, a carpet of Black Tugs/Lancers and high leveled heavy skirmishers/Cuirassiers are in the midst of annexing CS and sweeping the 3 remaining civs on my continent - now the real fun begins.

Your mounted ranged just play better than whatever has been going on with the default skirmisher line. They differentiate between normal archers, and they're useful and fun, which is most important. Yeah they might be superb in rough terrain, but it at least gives them a niche even if it's not thematic. You still need vision and proper support to take down enemies, and the reduced RCS requires you to still have ample siege for city captures. The +1 attack really lets you farm XP so you can get some juicy promotions; I specifically didn't give Parthian to any of my mounted ranged, so I could see how they functioned exclusively with 5 moves. Speaking of, the notes above say +1 attack and ignore ZoC, but there's been no ignore ZoC for my mounted ranged (Steppes promotion just states "+1 attack")... Even without it, they are beasts. Also, the option exists to still grant logistics, but I didn't see the result so I'm unaware if you can technically get your mounted ranged up to 3 attacks (obviously that would be too much).

Lastly, I know this has nothing to do with units, but the UA's 250% heavy tribute yields on annexation is absolutely insane. I'd argue this is a way more overpowered part of Genghis' kit. I didn't get my first heavy tributes until Medieval / Renaissance , and with era scaling I'm getting food / gold / culture in the thousands. One annexation gave me 4000 food, so my capital grew a pop for like 5 turns straight. I don't have much experience playing this civ, but this seems a bit much.

As of right now, I'm sticking with your tweaks for what seems like the foreseeable future. Keep up the good stuff!

 

[Kim Dong Un]

It is with great joy that Supreme Leader praises the new capabilities of your Death Robot. They are now worthy of being deployed in the name of The One & Unly.

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

 

[Edaka]

I'm curious, have you considered giving the skirmisher line, perhaps just up until the light tank, the ability to retreat before melee attacks instead of the 5th movement point? As somebody before me has expressed, it's inconsistant to have one mounted line be faster than the other (mounted melee), and it's also weird to have these 4MP -> 5MP -> 4MP jumps back and forth within the line. An additional movement point also exacerbates the whole deal with mounted ranged units being railguns on roads.

I'm thinking about the retreat beforee melee promotion because, first of all, it also gives mobility, just in a more subtle way. Secondly, that would make them especially resilient against melee, especially infantry, and the unit lines would have the following (very rough) roles/niches:
Mounted ranged - low but reliable, safe damage against melee, vulnerable against ranged; mobile and hard to catch;
Mounted melee - strong and mobile overall, especially against ranged, weaker against infantry;
Infantry - frontline unit, shield for ranged;
Ranged - good with the support of infantry and secure flanks against mounted; can still suffer a little damage from mounted ranged if the terrain is right.

That said, I think mounted ranged could still use a little decrease in RCS. Even having 4MP on my local install, I was able to deal too much damage without taking any damage with them, but then that was a defensive war and I was playing as the Inca, so mobility due to roads and hills was not a problem.

I have to say that I really like the increased CS on the skirmisher line, cause they're supposed to be mobile and expose themselves often, so it's good to have some faith that they won't crumble from a single pikeman. I'm also really enjoying your formation and infantry line tweak.

Edit: forgot the light tank: perhaps it should ignore rough terrain costs instead of retreating before melee, somewhat like a pre-helicopter "hover lite"? Not terribly thematic, but better than zippity-zap retreat, makes transition into helis smoother, and then, if you squint really hard, perhaps you can see a parallel to the fascist Germany's advance on France through the Ardennes.

Edit 2: to be clear, I'm not proposing a 100% retreat chance, though I'm not sure what would be a healthy one. Perhaps 66% for a start.

 

[pineappledan]

%retreat chances are a dice roll and the Vp community has been very harsh in their disapproval of chance mechanics in many other aspects. It’s also less intuitive.

I don’t see any reason why skirmishers having more movement than melee mounted is inconsistent. Mounted archers were always much less heavily armoured and less encumbered than horsemen who were relying on melee and shock tactics. They are very reliant on their mobility to survive while mounted melee can take a few hits.

if the jumping back and forth is too much then I will add a 5th move to light tanks. I haven’t heard an actual complaint about it from someone with gameplay-based feedback though. I’ve only played 1 game all the way through with my changes and I didn’t build a single skirmisher because the terrain and my own unit composition (Babylon) wasn’t conducive to it.

 

[pineappledan]

12-20 update incorporates many of the smaller changes into VP.

The newest version of the mod only changes Skirmisher and spearman promotions. Further changes to chukonu, GDRs, etc. have all made it into the base mod.

Thanks for playing!

 

[danymatrix]

So is it possible to use your version 4 with the new VP 12-20? or is it no longer necessary?