1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

pineappledan's Unit Tweaks

Discussion in 'Mods Repository' started by pineappledan, Nov 9, 2019.

  1. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    5,480
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    I mean, they were never necessary.

    I just took out the stuff for GDR and chu ko nu and tanks because all those fixes were incorporated in some way or another into VP. The skirmisher changes might be here to stay though, so this is an alternative version of the skirmisher units that rely on high mobility instead of a +/-75% rough/open delta as their main mechanic.
     
  2. ridjack

    ridjack King

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2017
    Messages:
    684
    @pineappledan Assuming that the "a city has been conquered for the Great Kahn!" popup is the the notification for conquering a CS, it's popping up for any city I take, CS or otherwise. I haven't played Mongolia enough on vanilla VP to remember if I saw this happening before I added the unit tweaks mod.

    I can't do too much troubleshooting or provide logs etc, sorry. Currently without internet on the home PC; posting this from my phone.
     
  3. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    5,480
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
  4. ridjack

    ridjack King

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2017
    Messages:
    684
    Aaaah, that makes sense. Thanks.

    I submit that your skirmishers are objectively better than G's. Mongolia might be OP; it doesn't take long to get a roving band of skirmishers all to Parthian Tactics, and from there they can just ping cities to death with impunity.

    AI settling strategies work against it, too. A city on flat ground surrounded by hills or forests is basically a gift to me.
     
  5. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    6,894
    Gave the new skirmishers a whirl. The damage was pretty in line for the most part. A lot of time my skirmishers were doing 10 ish damage a shot, but got to 17-18 in favorable conditions so I could do a good amount of damage.

    Odd spots I noticed, Heavy Skirmishers barely scratch caravels, and cruissairs just ping fusiliers. I did like calvary vs field guns, I was doing some nice damage there. Overall, skirmishers were garbage at city attacks, and I gave up on using them for that purpose.

    Ultimately the two keys questions are:

    1) Does this unit have a niche that doesn't take away from ranged units?
    2) Does this unit have a niche that doesn't take away from mounted units?

    On the first one, I feel its a yes. Ranged units probably still do more damage overall, but the mobility of the skirmisher does have some good uses. On the second one, its harder to answer. With the VP model today, there is a clear distinction between skirmisher and mounted (aka one is for rough, the other for open...most of the time). With this scenario, I'm not yet sure if mounted have a good place compared to just making more skirimshers, but I still have some testing to do to feel that out.



    In terms of the new formation, I personally think you could just make it 15% on defense period, and ignore the open terrain restriction. This solidifies the spear line as a primarily defensive unit, really only attacking when horse units are near. But in that role they are cheap and actually quite tanky, and can even soak some ranged fire
     
  6. azum4roll

    azum4roll Emperor

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2018
    Messages:
    1,122
    Gender:
    Male
    Still waiting for that Logistics Skirmisher version.

    I have a feeling 1xp per shot is impossible without changing the DLL. A workaround would be +100% xp required for promotion and -50% towards Great General generation, but that hurts them defensively too, and is really unintuitive.
     
  7. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    5,480
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    I pinged you. I uploaded a file 3 days ago. Here it is again.

    1XP per shot is totally doable, but it also means they only get 2XP on defense. It's just a -50% XP modifier. Mongols then get +1 moves and gain XP normally.
     

    Attached Files:

  8. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    5,480
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    That would be 40%/65% defense in rough terrain. The current system gives 25% defense in rough terrain and 15%/30% defense in open, making spear line the more terrain-agnostic of the two melee units. Formations are pretty impossible to hold in rough/forested/hilly terrain so there's a historical component to it as well, but just thought I would remind you of the rough terrain bonus in case you weren't thinking about it.
     
  9. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    6,894
    Playing it some more I'm coming around to your way of thinking. I'm finding an interesting choice now, I either go formation II shock I for my open terrain holds and a bit stronger against mounted (though honestly the mounted bonus is my second consideration unless the enemy is going mad mounted like Mongol or Spain), or I go shock II for hill holding/more offense.

    I'm enjoying the dichotomy.
     
  10. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    6,894
    The cruissasier and light tank I have found to be pretty underperforming. They aren't doing much damage, and they just get creamed by other forces, including planes and artillery. The AI is also using them poorly as well, they just bring them into range for the double attack, and then I mow them down.
     
  11. Heinz_Guderian

    Heinz_Guderian Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2020
    Messages:
    94
    Location:
    Sweden
    Not to try to incite mutiny here, but are you considering tweaking the upcoming archer 1 range and the buff to swordsmen in this mod? I agreed with virtually everything you said in the discussion about the changes to those units in that thread.
     
  12. Guynemer

    Guynemer King

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2002
    Messages:
    678
    I'm willing to see how the new changes play out; sounds like spears are getting a bit of a buff in G's latest update to the patch notes, so the swordsman issue may not be as bad. If nothing else, range-1 archers may be an opportunity for unique units to stand out a little more.
     
    vyyt and Kim Dong Un like this.
  13. azum4roll

    azum4roll Emperor

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2018
    Messages:
    1,122
    Gender:
    Male
    That's why I suggested giving them some ranged defense bonuses (+25% or even +50%). They have low RCS due to design, but the same value is used for ranged defense as well. Any ranged attack including their own would heavily damage or immediately kill them.

    @ilteroi also mentioned the AI never picks Logistics/Blitz at level up. Maybe they need to be trained for them.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2020
    vyyt likes this.
  14. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    5,480
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    I'm working on an update to this. The spear line changes are now redundant. I have a day-job and like 8 other mods now, so there's only so much I can do, especially if G is going to continue to release patches at 11PM on a Sunday night.

    I agree that adding cover to skirmisher line makes sense if they are using thweir RCS to defend. It's just that.... ugh, that's 3 entire unit lines with free cover promotions now.
     
  15. azum4roll

    azum4roll Emperor

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2018
    Messages:
    1,122
    Gender:
    Male
    Except Cover doesn't thematically make sense and they probably need more than just +25% ranged defense. What about just incorporating a slightly higher defense value to the existing promo?
     
  16. kenneth1221

    kenneth1221 Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2016
    Messages:
    203
    Request: I know that Pioneers might be slightly out of the scope of this modmod, but since their scaling apparently still hasn't been fixed, any chance you could take a gander at it?
     
    Arthur Jama likes this.
  17. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    5,480
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    even if they are a little weaker to ranged attack I find that acceptable. Regardless, I do actually think 25% is all that is needed because all their RCS values are roughly 25% less than their CS values. I still want these units to rely mainly on their movement to survive

    with Alhambra giving a unique promotion now, the main source of discomfort for shock swords is gone. I’m tempted to simply revert swords back to shock. It’s more thematic and flexible than cover
    G hard coded the unit cost scaling somewhere in the dll and set settler/poor beerPioneer costs to 0. I can’t help you without editing the dll.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2020
  18. HungryForFood

    HungryForFood Prince

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2016
    Messages:
    403
    Location:
    Malaysia
    I can investigate when I have time. Going to need to look into the dll soon anyway from GitHub requests.
     
  19. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    5,480
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    Big one!
    Code:
     - slightly increased CS and RCS on cuirassier
     - gave all skirmisher units cover II
     - removed cover I from all sword line units. replaced with Shock I
     - Could not give 2 range to all cities as base, so I moved +1 city attack range to monuments
     - gave archers back their 2 range. uniques rebalanced around this as well
     - reduced swordsman base CS back to 16. Uniques are around this as well
     - berserkers CS increased to 22
     - maori CS increased to 22
    I kept spears at 12 CS for now. I am considering dropping them back to 11, but they are fine as is for now. I would definitely keep immortal and hoplite at 13/14 though, so we can try spears at this level for now

    Note: NONE of these new changes are reflected in the text. Too much work for now. It's a ton of work to create all those SQL updates, expecially if these changes aren't going to be permanent.
     

    Attached Files:

    tibu, vyyt, KaoticKanine and 3 others like this.
  20. kenneth1221

    kenneth1221 Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2016
    Messages:
    203
    Hurrah! A modmod that gives the players options. Those poor, poor souls who can't keep themselves from doing archer rushes will no longer have that possibility forced upon them by base VP, while everyone who thinks 2 range archers are fun can play with them!
     

Share This Page