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Pioneers again

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by bonniepbilly, Feb 11, 2020.

  1. bonniepbilly

    bonniepbilly Chieftain

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    There are already some threads discussing pioneers and the current scaling, but from a balance perspective, it seems that even if you find a very good city location, it is not often worth it to use pioneers unless there are strong strategic reasons to do so. Doesn’t it mean that pioneers need some buff, beyond the correction of the current broken scaling? Like additional buildings and more pop? It seems to me that as long your happiness is not tanking you should have a benefit in expanding to new valuable territory.
     
  2. Delvemor

    Delvemor Chieftain

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    I play on Immortal and use pioneers almost every game without regretting it (that is I still win). I think it's much better to first produce settlers and upgrade them to pioneers though, as long as you have the gold for it. Sure your science and culture costs increase as soon as you settle a new city, and your tourism decreases too. But as long as you invest in that new city, rushing buildings and sending an internal route for production or food depending on the needs of the city, it's just a matter of time before that new city pays for itself and beyond. As you say yourself as long as your happiness is not tanking you should have a benefit in expanding. In all my games that's what happens. On my last game I even used a pioneer because I needed more military supply after too much war wariness from a long war. But I should mention I almost always play with Progress and Industry, my experience might not be true for Tradition or Authority players.
     
  3. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Pioneers are very good for someone who has progress or industry, or especially both. Islands can be worth settling, and some map scripts have unsettled areas across the ocean which come too late for settlers.

    You generally want gold and a trade route to support the new city, but it can quickly become a positive source of yields. It's best if your religion provides some easy yields to it (such as scholarship) and you'll want to fill its specialists (usually scientists or a guild).
     
    SwirlSlayer likes this.
  4. Rafs

    Rafs Warlord

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    My only problem with pioneers is the cost can scale to crazy amounts of huge maps (I know, not standard so not balanced for really), when a Pioneer costs more than a wonder (and you actually have wonders so their cost is increased), you know you have a problem. I wish there was a way to build a settler instead of pioneer sometimes, I like the tile grabing and free buildings but the extra turns it takes to build them is honestly very frustrating sometimes. Maybe a cap on the increase cost or some way to help with it would alleviate the problem for some map sizes.
     
  5. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    They need to be a bit cheaper in general if built with production.

    If you do the settler + gold upgrade they are actually a little bit too strong. Its like 120 hammers + 400 gold vs like 1,000 hammers.
     
  6. Rekk

    Rekk Emperor

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    Larger maps should have reduced scaling, because it's expected that each civ will have more cities. This is the case for increased tech/policy costs with city number.
     
    cammcken likes this.
  7. bonniepbilly

    bonniepbilly Chieftain

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    Exactly, right now it's mostly viable if you have progress/industry. Personally I would like it to be viable regardless (but progress/industry would have a stronger incentive to colonize new continents fast).
    Maybe the proposal just posted to create puppets would help too.
     
  8. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I keep thinking that Pioneers should get the lighthouse by default. On the one hand, its not a building every city gets. But I find that time and time again, when I use pioneers, its to settle on islands or new continents...in which the lighthouse is mandatory to make my city connection.

    It seems silly that such an essential building to the settlement doesn't come with the package.
     
    Rhys DeAnno likes this.
  9. Zanteogo

    Zanteogo Prince

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    In my opinion both of the settler upgrades need to come earlier, need to be cheaper, but give less starting buildings.

    This way they can be more part of the actual settling phase.
     
    cammcken likes this.
  10. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    This really depends on map settings. For example, on Communitas_79 and Terra style maps...I use pioneers in every game.
     
  11. Zanteogo

    Zanteogo Prince

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    Can I ask why?

    If the advanced settlers came well before the ocean crossing tech then I could see it. They don't though.

    In my opinion they come way too late. Often well after 90% of the settling is done.
     
  12. azum4roll

    azum4roll King

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    Banking is on the same tech column as Astronomy.

    There are lots of viable spots to settle that can only be accessed by crossing the ocean. Most of the times you lack iron or horse or coal. Even colonists can be useful if you really need those aluminum in the snow to build your spaceship parts.
     
  13. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Throwing this out there. This won't solve all issues but it would give Pioneers an interesting benefit.

    Right now when you expand to other lands, you pretty much have to settle on the coast to avoid the big isolation penalties. What if pioneers automatically connected your city no matter where it is? Than you could settle inland a bit more safely.

    The flipside of course is that you couldn't send sea routes to bump up your new place....so I actually don't know if it would be a net positive, but its something to consider.
     
    crdvis16 likes this.
  14. Omen of Peace

    Omen of Peace Prince

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    I like the idea, but city connections can normally be broken in war time. How would you handle this?
     
    cammcken likes this.

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