Plan for Mosque III...

[MobBoss]

A continuation of the epic. Earlier two threads:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=375155

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=363849&highlight=mosque

Please continue.

 

[Tee Kay]

Build it somewhere else, calm things down and try again in a decade or so. It took about 20 years after WWII for Hawaii to hand back over the Shinto shrine that was near Pearl Harbor, so why not show some patience here as well?

Well you guys seem to be so intent on all that not-letting-the-terrorists-terrorize-us thing...

Yeah, and the Imam and planners of the mosque refuse to fully disclose their funding

IIRC they haven't even began proper fundraising yet.

and answer many of the concerns that people have about this project.

Try Google.

 

[bhsup]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances

Basically, anyone trying to in any way prevent via protest, etc or any other way this mosque from being built is opposed to the 1st Amendment.

 

[MobBoss]

Basically, anyone trying to in any way prevent via protest, etc or any other way this mosque from being built is opposed to the 1st Amendment.

No one is 'preventing' it, they are simply exercising their right to free speech in opposition of it.

No one is advocating regulation to deny them the right to build there.

No one is trying to break any laws or to deny them any rights.

People are just voicing their dissent in saying 'its a bad idea'.

Thats it.

And I am disappointed in you VRWCAgent, I would have thought you to support peoples right to free speech on this issue.

 

[Tee Kay]

People are just voicing their dissent in saying 'its a bad idea'.

And we're just voicing our dissent in saying that dissent is a bad idea.

 

[MobBoss]

And we're just voicing our dissent in saying that dissent is a bad idea.

Until the issue is something that you desire to dissent to of course.

Then dissent is just fine and consitutional.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

A lot of people are outright saying it should not be built.

A lot of other people seem to think that the opinion of the first group is in some way relevant.

 

[Tee Kay]

When did I say it was unconstitutional?

 

[bhsup]

And I am disappointed in you VRWCAgent, I would have thought you to support peoples right to free speech on this issue.

They do have that right. But to use free speech to try to beat down freedom of religion is a terrible abuse of that right. It disappoints me that so many of my fellow citizens are doing it.

 

[MobBoss]

A lot of people are outright saying it should not be built.

Under these current conditions? It shouldnt. Its a bad idea.

A lot of other people seem to think that the opinion of the first group is in some way relevant.

If they werent relevant this wouldnt be on the news.

 

[BSmith1068]

They do have that right. But to use free speech to try to beat down freedom of religion is a terrible abuse of that right. It disappoints me that so many of my fellow citizens are doing it.

This.

Oh and, here's to round 3:

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Under these current conditions? It shouldnt. Its a bad idea.

There are two arguments I have seen that it is a bad idea: from you, it's "a lot of people think it's a bad idea". So . . . you think it's a bad idea, because a lot of people are opposed to it, because they think it's a bad idea? Beyond that, every argument that it is somehow a bad idea boils down to "there is no distinction between this group and al Qaeda". So all opposition in any form is either "I identify them with al Qaeda" or "other people identify them with al Qaeda." You have been saying this for 2 threads now and refusing to admit that is what you have been saying.

If they werent relevant this wouldnt be on the news.

Well, see above. They are relevant only insofar as other people (such as yourself) insist they are relevant.

 

[MobBoss]

They do have that right. But to use free speech to try to beat down freedom of religion is a terrible abuse of that right. It disappoints me that so many of my fellow citizens are doing it.

Again, this isnt a 'beatdown' of freedom of religion. At all.

Like I pointed out earlier...if I were going to build a church, and was attempting to build it in a location where other christians, maybe not even of my own denomination, had commited some heinous act, and I were getting overwhelming opposition to that project, I would cancel it. Why? Because I recognize that in building my church, I would be hurting people in doing it....and that wouldnt be right.

Instead, I would build elsewhere nearby, and work to make peace with the community, so that, in the future, those wounds could be healed.

Thats what a real peace bringer would do.

Well, see above. They are relevant only insofar as other people (such as yourself) insist they are relevant.

Well, Eran, by even replying to this thread you give it relevance as well....in case you didnt realize that of course.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

The problem with that view, MB, is that you are allowing people's feelings to dictate other people's actions without considering whether said feelings are rational or not. In other words, you seem to think that anything that makes someone upset should not be done.

(Unless you actually agree that it is rational to be upset, but it is only rational to be upset if you really think there is a connection between this group and al Qaeda - if not, it is not rational to be upset about it. If you think that it is, you should admit it.)

 

[illram]

Under these current conditions? It shouldnt. Its a bad idea.



If they werent relevant this wouldnt be on the news.

Do you honestly think any mainstream media newsoutlet these days, e.g. CNN, MSNBC, FOX, care about relevancy and objective reporting, especially when it comes to this "story"?

They are pumping this thing up because it's the hot story of the day. It's like the ultimate "news" story; no real factual investigation is involved (and would likely be counter-productive) people get super pissed and emotional about it on air, it's totally ripe for pundits to blabber about forever, and even better, now there is a new "we are once again confused about Obama's religion" side theme going on now. They love it. It hits on all the simmering idiot undercurrents of the day: war on islam, Obama's a closet muslim, NY isn't real America, yada yada.

 

[naterator]

So the argument seems to be this:

Real Amercans: "We want you to build it somewhere else."
Muslims: "We want to build it here, on our land."
Real Amercans: "Then we compromise, build it somewhere else."
Muslims: "How is that a compromise."
Real Amercans: "9-11!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111!!11!!"

 

[MobBoss]

The problem with that view, MB, is that you are allowing people's feelings to dictate other people's actions without considering whether said feelings are rational or not.

Again, Eran, simply pointing and calling others irrational isnt going to bring peace. Its merely going to suffice to inflame things further.

In my example, I wouldnt care whether the other parties feelings were irrational or not at that particular moment....because it doesnt change anything in regards to the situation...aside from making it even worse.

If one is faced with irrationality due to some emtional wounds, the best thing to do is heal the wound in order to deal with the irrationality. In other words, for progress to be really made, things have to be calmed down....only then will people be actually willing to listen as opposed to being irrational.

My wife deals with irrational people each and every day. Her sharing with me how they deal with them has given us both a lot of insight in how to deal with people that are terribly hurt, and are indeed irrational as a result. You cant ram it right back at them. That only makes things worse.

This isnt a winning scenario for the mosque planners. The opposition on this has grown to such proportion that they may not be able to secure funding for the project regardless. Like I said, their hard-headedness is whats making this worse, because maybe they dont know how to deal with wounded, irrational people, aside from forcing things on them. I predict its going to get worse before it gets better if thats how they thing 'peace building' is accomplished.

Eran....and yes, we all have to deal with each others emotions and feelings in situations like this. Whether its a mosque, a walmart, a golf course, a shopping mall, casino, whatever, often people OBJECT to something thats still absolutely legal to the point where the builders finally realize that its simply not a good idea to go forward with the project. This isnt a violation of anyones rights, either, just a wake up call to the builders of how much support they have for their planned project.

This happens in a wide variety of ways all across america every day. It just hasnt risen to the point of national media (well, local media has carried townships opposed to Walmart or Casinos before on the same premise). So, how this is being done isnt anything new, its just on a much larger scale.

 

[Tee Kay]

Sensitivity must work both ways...

This is from Cracked. I know, not the best of sources to put it mildly, and you're welcome to think I'm being juvenile quoting from it. Though I find on rare occasions they're better than certain cable news channels...

The Burlington Coat factory is private property. Those who want to build on it are private citizens. They are violating no law in wanting to build a community center. Under what authority do you propose we stop them? There is no “unless you’re a Muslim within X yards of a national tragedy exception” to the free exercise of religion. Do the Gingrichs and Palins and Reids want to start a precedent where you can compel people not to exercise the freedoms guaranteed under our Constitution provided enough people don’t like you?

And what are we saying to Muslims? That if they were good Americans they would willingly give up their rights? I can’t think of anything less American than that? This is America. We do what we want. And all you have to do to have that right is be a citizen here. And if you’re a traitor, well then we will prosecute you for treason and penalize you for taking up arms against the greatest country in the world, but we will NOT start curtailing your freedoms based on mere speculation fueled by lies about what you’re building and where you’re building it.

 

[say1988]

Build it somewhere else, calm things down and try again in a decade or so.

Or bukd it, wait 6 months, and everybody will forget about it.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Again, Eran, simply pointing and calling others irrational isnt going to bring peace. Its merely going to suffice to inflame things further.

In my example, I wouldnt care whether the other parties feelings were irrational or not at that particular moment....because it doesnt change anything in regards to the situation...aside from making it even worse.

If one is faced with irrationality due to some emtional wounds, the best thing to do is heal the wound in order to deal with the irrationality. In other words, for progress to be really made, things have to be calmed down....only then will people be actually willing to listen as opposed to being irrational.

My wife deals with irrational people each and every day. Her sharing with me how they deal with them has given us both a lot of insight in how to deal with people that are terribly hurt, and are indeed irrational as a result. You cant ram it right back at them. That only makes things worse.

This isnt a winning scenario for the mosque planners. The opposition on this has grown to such proportion that they may not be able to secure funding for the project regardless. Like I said, their hard-headedness is whats making this worse, because maybe they dont know how to deal with wounded, irrational people, aside from forcing things on them. I predict its going to get worse before it gets better if thats how they thing 'peace building' is accomplished.

So in essence, you are saying:

"People who are opposed to the mosque are clearly incorrect to do so. They are wrong. We should do it their way anyways."

I mean, I am having a really hard time thinking you have the actual interests of the mosque community center's builders at heart . . .

And nothing is being forced on anyone anyways. Since the "irrational people" don't have to give their consent, or money, or anything for it to be built, and have no claim over the area or the symbols involved, nothing is being "forced" on them.