Plans/strategy for t113-t150

[2metraninja]

So, here is a thread to propose and discuss our strategy and tech path in the next few tens of turns after we had nominally won the war with Spaniards.

 

[2metraninja]

Let me post the first strategy I was thinking for some time. Lets call it CS-NAT-TAJ

turn tech ready bpt gpt g. res
97 55 94
98 60 149
99 65 209
100 70 274
101 70 344
102 180 -80 414 academy, Indira 60bpt
103 180 -80 334
104 180 -80 254
105 currency 720 180 -80 174
106 100 94
107 100 194
108 100 294
109 265 -80 394
110 Aesthetics 540 265 -80 314
111 265 -80 234
112 Literature 380 265 -80 154
113 100 74
114 100 174
115 265 -120 274
116 CoL 630 265 -120 154
117 120 34
118 120 154
119 120 274
120 120 394
121 300 -120 514
122 300 -120 394
123 Metal Casting 810 300 -120 274
124 300 240 154 failgold from Nat Epic
125 Alphabet 540 300 -120 394
126 120 274
127 -120 394
128 120 274
129 120 394
130 120 514
131 Bulb CS to 1140 300 -120 634
132 Meditation 144 300 -120 514
133 Bulb Philo 300 -120 394
134 1000 -120 274
135 300 -120 154
136 300 34
137 0 120 34
138 0 120 154
139 400 -120 274
140 400 -120 154
141 400 -120 34
142 Nat 3240 150 -86
143 150 64
144 150 214
145 150 364
146 150 514
147 150 664
148 400 -150 814
149 400 -150 664
150 Machinery 1260 400 -150 514
151 400 -150 364
152 Feudalism 1260 400 -150 214 Taj - GA

Note that I put down those numbers some 15-20 turns ago - at turn 96 and some things are way off (mostly because of the war) but as general idea, the strategy is still good.

 

[2metraninja]

The next is called CS+LIB->NAT

turn tech ready bpt gpt g. res
97 55 94
98 60 149
99 65 209
100 70 274
101 70 344
102 180 -80 414 academy, Indira 60bpt
103 180 -80 334
104 180 -80 254
105 currency 720 180 -80 174
106 100 94
107 100 194
108 100 294
109 265 -80 394
110 Aesthetics 540 265 -80 314
111 265 -80 234
112 Literature 380 265 -80 154
113 100 74
114 100 174
115 265 -120 274
116 CoL 630 265 -120 154
117 120 34
118 120 154
119 120 274
120 120 394
121 300 -120 514
122 300 -120 394
123 Metal Casting 810 300 -120 274
124 300 240 154 failgold from Nat Epic
125 Alphabet 540 300 -120 394
126 120 274
127 -120 394
128 120 274
129 120 394
130 120 514
131 Bulb CS to 1140 300 -120 634 1 GM
132 Meditation 144 300 -120 514
133 Bulb Philo 300 -120 394 1 GS
134 Paper 1080 1000 -120 274
135 300 -120 154
136 300 34
137 0 120 34
138 0 120 154
139 400 -120 274
140 400 -120 154
141 Bulb rest of Education 3240 400 -120 34 1 GS
142 150 -86 1 GS
143 400 150 64
144 Bulb Lib, take Nationalism 400 -150 214
145 150 64
146 150 214
147 150 364
148 400 -150 514
149 400 -150 364
150 400 -150 214
151 400 -150 64
152 400 -150 -86 Taj - GA??

 

[YossarianLives]

I think Poly or RB can beat us to Lib by a mile, so we probably shouldn't count on that. I like the CS - NAT - Taj plan a lot, except I'd want to slip in the rest of Calendar somewhere there. We'll need the extra happy if we're leaving HR. Maybe after Lit or CoL?

 

[Maga_R]

I also have not much hope we can beat RB to liberalism. What do we think RB would be aiming to get from liberalism? Our chance could be that they will be aiming for some very costly technology so we cab have a chance for taking something cheaper. But as experienced MP players and superb demo hackers they probably have a good idea what is a realistic date for liberalism being researched by another team. BTW, how accurately gpt is estimated?

 

[vranasm]

I also have not much hope we can beat RB to liberalism. What do we think RB would be aiming to get from liberalism? Our chance could be that they will be aiming for some very costly technology so we cab have a chance for taking something cheaper. But as experienced MP players and superb demo hackers they probably have a good idea what is a realistic date for liberalism being researched by another team. BTW, how accurately gpt is estimated?

when in race Nationalism is very obvious choice especially if you have marble...and if I remember right we kinda promised them marble...

maybe the turn they want marble from us would tell us at what turn they want to finish Lib->Nat

 

[2metraninja]

BTW, how accurately gpt is estimated?

Absolutely vague at the time when this was made. However, you can see how the plans start from t97 and move on in the last 15 turns and judge how much they represent the real situation.

 

[2metraninja]

when in race Nationalism is very obvious choice especially if you have marble...and if I remember right we kinda promised them marble...

maybe the turn they want marble from us would tell us at what turn they want to finish Lib->Nat

Very good input, vranasm. I never thought about RB, marble and Taj. Good food for thoughts. So, we tell them they can have it from t130 to t140 then? Beside this fits best in our own plans, as a side effect, this will delay their Epics the most and we will have our Marble to use for Taj ourselves.

 

[vranasm]

there is couple of uknowns... i don't read everything and don't have ingame overview, but would be good to check how many great persons RB already generated, who won Music race.

In Ntt games timing is slower then tech trade games, but I can imagine with some strong GPP hunt they can have Education by early AD's.

Who won MoM? if RB gets MoM, taj they can chain for like 30-40 turns GA's easilly.

taj is just a thought, they could use marble for MoM obviously too... and MoM is hell of strong wonder... the only reason it's not built in SP regularly is that it's on dead end tech which you want to trade for and AI usually prioritizes it themself
__________________

as per our plans... I am kinda confused with the planned CS bulb? it's from GM? Dunno if we can make trade mission instead...
there is tons of beakers wasted probably... Don't like bulbing CS at all.

 

[2metraninja]

there is couple of uknowns... i don't read everything and don't have ingame overview, but would be good to check how many great persons RB already generated,

The had only one - a single Great Prophet so far. They are obviously after GS this time so they can have their academy.

Who won MoM? if RB gets MoM, taj they can chain for like 30-40 turns GA's easilly.

CivFR got MoM. We were aimed ourselves to get it too just before the Spaniards attacked us and we had good chances to get it btw. Dont know what took RB so long to build it as I think they were first to Calendar.

who won Music race.

This one I think we can count for RB. But who knows - French can surprise the world once again.

 

[2metraninja]

Speaking of Frenches, I think they got Temple of Artemis this turn. 2 Marble wonders in short time period... They must have Marble and stable borders I think.

 

[vranasm]

maybe a bit more on the "why not CS bulb"... we actually can use the GM for golden age... we can compare the amount of commerce + GPPs we gain through GA x the bulb of CS...

with the empire the size we have I would be very surprised if we won't end ahead with running GA instead of bulbing the CS...

trade mission should be something like 900-1100 gold which is ??? 100% research = ? beakers too...

 

[2metraninja]

The cool thing in this plan is that it puts big amount of beakers overflow towards Nationalism and we can get it with surprise before anyone see it is coming.

Other than that, I like trade missions too. And the Golden Age will be there for us to fire it when we want it. With our SPI trait, National Epic, our Astan city and Pacifism, it is a matter or 4-5 turns to get the next GP and launch a GA.

 

[2metraninja]

I had very good chat with Bistrita where we discussed our short terms goals. I think it is quite self-explanatory and full of good ideas. Read and comment please, we really need a destination after the Spanish fly.

Bistrita: i had a litle time and catched a bit in empire devopment
and discution
its looking good
i think
to bad we cant sign peace with those zulu's
we have some land to develop
2metraninja: yes, bloody zulus
but what I was thinking is just to build the usual catapults and keep our border garrisoned
they cant win a war with us
they cant even harm us
we just have one side where we cant send unprotected workers
Bistrita: thats good tought too
Bistrita: another 4-5 cats and should be alright
i dont think they will get better units too soon
2metraninja: yes
they are making 8 gpt at 0% slider
I can even raze or capture their most southern city
Bistrita: thats will not getting beter for them too sun
2metraninja: but razing is not much good for us
except we show muscules
and get some 50-100 ogld
and keeping might be problematic
Bistrita: yep
beter to wait
2metraninja: my hand are itching for some action
to raise the guys morale
Bistrita: he he
2metraninja: why you laugh it is important aspect
Bistrita: i know morale its important
Bistrita: but not if you loose sight for long term
2metraninja: this is important too
we will have window of opportunity to attack them in say 20-30 turns?
or even 40
maces
Bistrita: maces with cats wil be very good
2metraninja: yes
Bistrita: and they cant build too much
who is theyr nrighbour?
2metraninja: Moineau in the east - CivFR
north Uciv

Bistrita: perhaps working with moino for a fast operation
2metraninja: I dont think so
I've seen how it works
Bistrita: me too
2metraninja: the nation under siege produces catapults like crazy
and whoever dare to step in first, he gets the blunt of the hit
his army dies and the other army captures all cities
if we can make the French to step in first, then great
but I doubt they will be this naive
Bistrita: indeed
well not that is the point
if you have someone to work with
but i supose we cant trust them
if was mprox
perhaps
Bistrita: just read your talk with mzproz
2metraninja: yes
Bistrita: looks like a coalition against rb gets on going
all civs scared
2metraninja: he is absolutely sane player
Bistrita: by those players
2metraninja: he knows the trade
Bistrita: you must admit
RB play excelent
2metraninja: I do admit
but nonsenses like "we have to not do any diplomacy or not produce workers to give all others a chance" is plain stupid
2metraninja: I am part of the good RB position too. I asked to postpone Hinduism with 2 turns to get it where we needed
and RB got it
I must have been with the team from the very beginning too, not desert them for 50 turns
Bistrita: who's playing for ladder?
2metraninja: what is done is done, we need to move forward and think how to win
Ot4e
Bistrita: he is good enough
2metraninja: yes
Bistrita: but he doesnt plan too much
2metraninja: it seems they got mad at us when we told them we have NAP with RB
Bistrita: they dont have?
2metraninja: seems so
Bistrita: Nap its very good now
2metraninja: all was going great and they proposed us alliance - whoever is attacked the other helps, exchange of info and all
Bistrita: getting presure from Rb now would have been hard
2metraninja: and when we told them we agree of course with the exception of RB which we have NAP with, they never said a single word anymore
you see?
and you called us chickens for having NAP with RB
Bistrita: didnt know about crazy zulu's
2metraninja: well, we knew they will attack someone
why otherwise they choose Baodicea of Zulu?
and never sign a NAP with anyone
Bistrita: crazy?
2metraninja: we were afraid they might have Uciv as allies too
Bistrita: perhaps we took thyer barbarian city
2metraninja: I was thinking too - that if we raze one of Zulu cities, we will send clear message to the world - we are winning and we are well and alive and we are good partners
might be
Bistrita: no one its stupid to not see the diference
2metraninja: but not, they were producing catapults before we took the barb city
difference yes, but for someone who dont see what is going on, we are attacked by nasty AGG/CHA Zulus and we must be struggling to survive
I tested. If we make 10 catapults and 20 HAs to join to our existing 10 axes, zulus cant stop us even with 15 catapults, 10 axes and 7-8 impis
and this is what they will have at most
while we can send in more units if we want
but will we be able to recover ?
Bistrita: i thought alot
about
our sitution
2metraninja: and?
Bistrita: i think best solution its avoid war
gave up on GLib for now
build wealth as much as we can
get a marketplace
or happines from somewhere
and do a hard push
for Burocracy
using scientist
we have like 3 -4 libraries
i think
2metraninja: 3
Bistrita: super
45 science
2metraninja: yes
under REP
Bistrita: and push hard for that
yep
thats best play
capitol its huge
2metraninja: how is Bureaucracy bulbed with GS?
Bistrita: we dont bulb
we research it
2metraninja: just beeline?
Bistrita: yep
COL
and Buro
thast all
coll with curency
2metraninja: with 45 bpt will take quite a lot of time
Bistrita: and pristhod
2metraninja: COL not, but CS?
Bistrita: man using all scinece to get there
CS its huge
2metraninja: slider + specialists?
Bistrita: yep
2metraninja: calendar before this?
Bistrita: nope
2metraninja: we have 1/4 already teched
Bistrita: ok then
then we dont need to whip
2metraninja: we get +2 food in capitol too
Bistrita: the market
even better
2metraninja: we have 1 unhealth and 1 for plantation
Bistrita: super
its safe
and we want maces
2metraninja: maces sounds good
Bistrita: and buro will be excelent for us
2metraninja: true
size 15 at 1AD
Bistrita: lets play what game requires
we need a strong atack unit
thats what i think
if you think we are safe we could revolt rep and caste
after discovering
calendar
and col
2metraninja: yes
Bistrita: and i bet we can get buro in 5
turns
2metraninja: we must be safe
Bistrita: after we get calendar and caste
we can run a bunch of merchants
were we dont have libraries
2metraninja: I still want the GLIb
Bistrita: forget it man
2metraninja: is it so much 6-7 turns of deviation?
Bistrita: for now
yep
its 6-7 turn of buro
2metraninja: 1 tech
Bistrita: 7 turns later to maces
or even more
and more then that can loose it
and our capitol screams for burocracy
2metraninja: we will get TGLib for sure. It is a matter of 6-7 turns
we will get it in a single turn
Bistrita: why you so sure?
2metraninja: counted hammers
we have still forests to chop
Bistrita: well man your choise
2metraninja: I am discussing possibilities
Bistrita: we need to adapt
2metraninja: for this I agree on 100%
Bistrita: were forced to research construction
capitol already a matured great city
2metraninja: guys criticize me so many times for changing often politics and direction
Bistrita: in a game i change direction like 20 times
you dont play SP
you need to adapt
2metraninja: I do this too
yes, I know that
Bistrita: have to
not need to
2metraninja: heheh
yes, small, but important difference
Bistrita: and with scientist merchants
2metraninja: 12 turns on slider to CS
3 to Caste
Bistrita: man rep
every miner
becames
a merchant
2metraninja: I was looking for rep specialists
Bistrita: in cities
with librarie
hire
2metraninja: yesh, after caste, we will be great
Bistrita: as much posible scientists
2metraninja: but before this, it wont be very easy to get serious bump in science
our citizens are already working cottages
Bistrita: well gave up on calendar then
2metraninja: i'm hardly scratching my head now
Bistrita: we can work with an unhappy citezen
2metraninja: yes, this is tru too
Bistrita: or you think an extra scientist
and some comerce from
silk will pay off?
2metraninja: hmm.. yes, 10 commerce more.. tempting
also, +4 food for capitol
Bistrita: and 9 science from scientist
or 10?
2metraninja: -2 for feeding unhappy citizen, -1 from unhealth and -1 from farmed banana
Bistrita: with rep
i menat
how many turns to get calendar?
2metraninja: 3
on breakeven
Bistrita: but we have sosme money
and col should go fast man
man prepare 6 workers
if you have in area
2metraninja: we can easily COL in 2
Bistrita: for planation
2metraninja: we have workers
with all those whips
Bistrita: so in 4 turns we can get col
and calendar
if we use some money
all money we have
??
2metraninja: let me check
Bistrita: col should be cheap
2metraninja: I think yes
with some overflow
but then maybe it is better to get COL in 2 first:
Bistrita: so in 4 turns rep
nope
and get rep and col
and try 1 trun calendar?
2metraninja: yes
Bistrita: that would be awesome
2metraninja: actually, we need REP for mass science
Bistrita: yes
2metraninja: and calendar postponed 2 turns cant be that bad
Bistrita: after col
2metraninja: yes
Bistrita: we cant get it 1 turn?
2metraninja: dont think so
Bistrita: how much lesft?
never say no
how many tiles we work at capitol which are not cotage or important food?
2metraninja: 1-2
Bistrita: or a smal cotage which someone else can take?
2metraninja: we make 285 bpt now
Bistrita: so 400
2metraninja: and calendar is 190/630
Bistrita: very posible
at 100%
so yeah
its doable
if we have money for 3 turns at 100%
2metraninja: we are like 1/8 short
Bistrita: did you factored known tech bonus?
how much its col?
i dont think we need 2 turns at 100%
2metraninja: we have 200 gold and we spend 120 on turn
Bistrita: for col
2metraninja: for col we need 2 turns at 60-70%
Bistrita: well beter run at maximum we can
2metraninja: nope, 2 turns at 80% - 150 gold needed
we have money for 1 turn maximum
Bistrita: and when take people from cotage
at capitol
so anyway
in 4 turns we can have
calendar and col
2metraninja: yes, in 4
Bistrita: and with caste
and silk online
and working
6 scientist in capitol
we can get buro
in 5 i am sure
2metraninja: so, what you think - COL first or calendar first?
Bistrita: the other way we will need 5 turns i think
2metraninja: I am so tired and telling fairytales I cant think at 100%
Bistrita: calendar first
2metraninja: hmm... but why?
Bistrita: then perhaps will nedd 5 turns
no enough money
to finish both
2metraninja: yes, true
Bistrita: with calendar first
with col first
we finish in 4 turns
2metraninja: we can get few more coins by building wealth everywhere
Bistrita: if we can get in 4 turns
no mater what
then calendar
2metraninja: let me check
2metraninja: yes, we can
2 turns for calendar and 2 turns for COL
Bistrita: well then
2metraninja: just enough money
Bistrita: thats a good plan
so in 9 turns
buro
way beter then in 20
or 18
lets say
2metraninja: we can have 6 scientists in capitol without starving
Bistrita: and other cities can work those tiles i bet
if are cotages
i dont care about others
Bistrita: so will be 63 science just from scinetists
i dont know how much we do at break even ther
but we will build wealth
i think in other cities with libraries
can get 4 scientist
in each
that another
60 science
2metraninja: 171 bpt at breakeven with all cities on money now
Bistrita: so we can do
300
with rep
and specealists
how expensive its buro?
2metraninja: 1440
-20% for COL
-5% or whatever for Apolyton having it already
Bistrita: easy man 5 turns
2metraninja: even 4
Bistrita: easy
no sweat
yep
but we cant revolt
only if we do col first
and revolt
2metraninja: hmm
this is another consideration
Bistrita: yep
so we can revolt in 8 turns
will be huge
2metraninja: now I cant think much, but pure beakers (not from commerce) get multiplyed by Bureau, or?
Bistrita: those are beakers
nope
but with rep
still worth running a pair fo scientist
in capitol
with academy
librarry
2metraninja: 10 beakers per specialist...
Bistrita: way beter than new coatges
yep
and cotages worked by other city
until those get beter then a specealist
usualy worth working cotages when slider its at max research
i am talking abot capitol here
when will get a grocer
and bank
work them all time
doesnt matter anymore
2metraninja: yes
Bistrita: after that we can get Mc
in 2-3 turns
and machinery
in like
4 turns
even les
so we are expecting maces in 14
2metraninja: 3 for MC
Bistrita: turns
man we will have burocracy then
2metraninja: 4 for machinery
ah
Bistrita: 8+7
so 15 turns
or 16
maces
and then get some of those
and kill
the zulu's
2metraninja: double our land in 30 turns
Bistrita: well they dont have thatmuch
2metraninja: land they have
cities - not
Bistrita: they do?
2metraninja: yeah, we dont see other borders
or at least 80%
of our land
Bistrita: our land its tasty
thats true
2metraninja: we are in our own boundaries still
Bistrita: very nice
2metraninja: their is not bad either
Bistrita: aha
well another gold
another capitol site
will do us no harm
2metraninja: heheh
we will have to chop/whip courthouses by then
Bistrita: yep
more than happy to do that
we have a strong base
so that land will not kill us
2metraninja: hopefully we will have NAP with the slow-slow-slow Uciv till then
Bistrita: who are this?
Uciv?
yes, Uciv - north of us
HRE
2metraninja: I might still send military expedition to capture this Spanish city for some easy gold
or not to kick the hornet's nest?
Bistrita: beter not
2metraninja: those guys are sensitive
Bistrita: ask them again for peace
2metraninja: ok, I will
Bistrita: to not produce more units

 

[SilentConfusion]

Bistrita: easy man 5 turns
2metraninja: even 4
Bistrita: easy
no sweat
yep
but we cant revolt
only if we do col first
and revolt
2metraninja: hmm
this is another consideration
Bistrita: yep
so we can revolt in 8 turns
will be huge

We are SPI, right, so revolts don't happen for us?

Overall I like the thinking in that chat and it helps me to get an idea of where we might be in the future.

 

[2metraninja]

We still need to wait 5 turns between civics switch.

 

[SilentConfusion]

We still need to wait 5 turns between civics switch.

Forgot that. Thanks for reminding me.

 

[YossarianLives]

That is an awesome chat. Thank you for sharing. I feel like my Civ skills kicked up a notch just from reading that.

I agree with this 100%

Bistrita: i thought alot
about
our sitution
2metraninja: and?
Bistrita: i think best solution its avoid war
gave up on GLib for now
build wealth as much as we can
get a marketplace
or happines from somewhere
and do a hard push
for Burocracy
using scientist

Skip TGLib, forget about the Spaniards another 15 turns (just build enough cats to defend against their next push), switch into Rep & Caste (we built the 'Mids for a reason), and push out a huge tech lead to roll over the Spaniards with maces and cats. They can't tech, they can't expand, they don't have enough pop to keep up with even just a few of our cities building units. We just need to keep patient, swat the fly away whenever they make incursions into our borders, and take them out when it will be nice and easy.

 

[RegentMan]

Sounds good to me Yoss.

 

[Sommerswerd]

We dont need anymore offensive units really. We can keep the Spanish at bay indefinitely by just building Cats. 2metra will remember a pitboss when I kept his better Army at bay and kept my backwards Civ in the game for centuries past when I should be dead by just building nothing but Catapults He had Knights and eles, and Muskets, even Rifles for a while and he couldnt attak because I had huge stack of Cats...

I lost eventually of course, but the point is if we go defensive and economic, and just forget about conquering SpAp for now, we can get the tech advantage and roll over them with ease in 15-20 turns, doubling our land, and then maybe they have more developed cities with higher population, more buildings, improvements, roads... Plus we will have a stronger economy to support all the new cities. If we invade now we will just have to Raze, raze raze.