Play With Me 2: Iroquois Zero-Culture ICS

Small note: The Great Warpath is wonderful. However be aware that they only count as roads. If you want railroad connection later in the game, the trees just don't cut it anymore (pun intended). That is to say they don't count as railroads.
I'm 99% sure that you DO get a railroad connection. It even made it into the bug list ;)
 
I have a question re: happiness which I feel is best posted here due to two factors: 1. It is highly relevant to the ICS strategy as a whole, and 2. I like the input already given from the minds frequenting this post. Not to hijack you alpaca, I'm interested on how this may affect your strat as well.

I'm currently running an Emperor Rome ICS and have noticed that purchasing Circuses for Happiness yields a net gain of 3 happy faces, NOT 4 as the building description indicates. I have seen in other threads with strat/walkthroughs such as this one that Circuses seem to be the ideal happiness building if more are needed after Colloseums are built, presumably due to maint/happy face ratio (and I was running a -25 happiness deficit with 3k in the bank, so I mass produced some.) Once I noticed this was happening I duplicated it and tried to figure out why. I'm running Meritocracy and the right-hand Commerce SPs, just before the +1 extra happy/resource, and have the Forbidden Palace built in Rome.

The only thing I can figure out is that the Forbidden Palace's "Unhappiness Reduction" has a detrimental affect on happy buildings... as more happiness buildings means less "unhappiness" to resolve and thus there's an indirect penalty applied to building happy buildings after Palace (and I assume the SP which has the same effect would exacerbate this.) I haven't had a chance to run an additional play looking for this specifically to test and see if the same applies to Colloseums, but I'll test my next city and update with that.

So my question is fourfold: Is this a known issue that I'm discovering? If so, is it a bug? And... if I'm wrong about FP causing negative returns for happy buildings, any idea what is causing it? And lastly, how much or in what way does it affect the cost/benefit analysis for Colloseums / Circuses in an ICS strat?

Cheers!
 
@javaja

circus is stated 3 maint 3 happy ingame tooltip, colosseum is 3 maint, 4 happy. Soo I am a bit confused...
 
Random recommendation: don't put the road where your red circle is. Put it directly West of Osinka so that it both hooks up your city and connects to the forest patches to the northwest, in case you settle up there in the future.

Thanks, well spotted :)

When you say zero-culture, do you mean you literally won't produce any culture except the +1 from your palace? If so, how are you going to get meritocracy? I guess you can still expand without meritocracy if you want, it'll just limit your city size a bit more.

I initially meant I won't build any culture buildings. I think now that I won't pick go for cultural CS, either, to play an ICS game without any SP besides Liberty. I can't control what puppets might do, of course, but will keep them to a minimum.

As for the Iroquois, the main reason is really that I never played with them before. I don't think they have a great bonus for ICS but the warpath doesn't look too bad, either.
 
I am curious to see how you are going to make those cities you dotmaped useful. I usually need to have 1 new luxury resource in each city for it beeing worth. Well, not on all of them but on many.
 
I am curious to see how you are going to make those cities you dotmaped useful. I usually need to have 1 new luxury resource in each city for it beeing worth. Well, not on all of them but on many.

Trade-post them. Maritime food lets them grow like the blazes. The longhouse could be useful, too. Wait a while and you'll see :)
 
I was wondering if you could go more into detail about what tiles you select for your cities and which improvements you build as well. I've been doing ICS but that's the thing I've kind of been wondering about. I've usually ignored growth after size 2 for every city in the start and just tried to max out production, is this what you do or do you focus more on gold at the start as well?
 
Play With Me 2: Iroquois, Part 3

Turns 27-31

Nothing much going on. I hit "End Turn" often. On turn 30 I get a Social Policy but since I decided I want to play without SP, I will ignore it. Osininka is hooked up to my "road" network. I send the worker down to improve the cows near Onondaga.




Turn 33 - A horse, my kingdom for a horse!

Finished HBR, now for Trapping to hook up those furs. Osininka starts on a horseman right away, Onondaga will finish the settler first. The barb camp west of my kingdom spawns a spearman just as I was preparing to attack it.


Turn 37 - Barbed Wire Everywhere

Well at least the barb camps look like it. One west, one east, double Barbarian action for my fledgling empire. I really need those horsemen. Onondaga finished the settler and starts on a horseman. The next turn, the camp to the west will spawn another brute. Damn, a unit every five turns? They produce them faster than I do! I can't found my third city for two turns because I have to move my warrior so his ZoC shields it. Unfortunately, I can't follow through with that plan because the warrior is attacked by the barbarian spear. Grr



Vienna claimed its Gems by the way.


Turn 39

Ram offers open borders again, I refuse again. My scout catches the spearman in the open near Osininka. I still can't move the settler, though.


Turn 41

Rome finds me and Ramkhamhaeng enters the Classical Era. I finish Trapping and will go for Writing now.


Turn 42&43

Askia offers me a Pact of Cooperation. Highly irregular and unusual behaviour. My warrior is yellow again so I moved it onto the hill to protect my settler, finally founding Grand River. The warrior survived with 1 hp, this was a bit closer than I expected. I can clear the encampment now, though, which I do ASAP. The worker improves the furs while I slide into unhappiness for a little while. Grand River starts on a worker




Turn 45

Somebody builds Stonehenge. As you see, building wonders on Immortal would be a high-risk job which is why I avoid it for the most part.


Turn 46

The first Horseman is finished. Onondaga will build another one, the one from Osininka will be finished in the same turn and I'll buy a fourth one to rush Askia (I need luxuries). The first one will meanwhile train with the eastern Barb camp. My scout is back to shape so I send him out again.

My sages finish researching how to use clay to create useful hardened pottery and I decide to allow them to do some theoretical job next: Calendar, it is. Maybe that will be useful to predict crop cycles?


Turn 48

The barbarians are really unusually tough in this game - or am I just unlucky? My horseman barely survives attacking the camp even though he was supposed to still have something like 4 hp. I finish the camp to grab the furs and start building a farm near Osininka. I haven't found a maritime CS yet, unfortunately.




Turn 50

I find Germany to the east. I will probably change my plans and destroy Bismarck first. This decision is a direct result of my previous experiences with the German Landsknecht-Monster who usually conquers the whole world and gives my horses a very bad time. I don't have to remind you I also have a Pact of Cooperation with Askia, right?



The Great Warpath comes in pretty hand so far, allowing me to hook up three pop for just one gold. It's also a big save on worker turns. I scout around Germany to prepare my attack.





Turn 54

I clear the barb encampment with my warrior. Bismarck only has warriors so far, no spears or archers, which means he should be easy prey for my horses due next turn. I rush-buy another horse to speed up the process. Grand River grows to size 2 and starts building a Settler.




Turn 55

All those horsemen immediately push me to second place in the soldier stats. I start moving my army and build some more settlers. Calendar is finished, I will research Writing now. This will be followed by a beeline to Construction to get Colosseums, which I will need very soon.




Due to missing Liberty, my cities take longer than normal to build the settlers but that's what you get for claiming a Zero Culture game :lol:


Turn 56

I like improving hills near rivers with farms. This makes them excellent tiles and I still haven't found any other city states to bribe for food so I will need a bit.




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I will take a break before starting the war against Bismarck. Hope you're having fun reading. Part 4 is online, now.
 
I was wondering if you could go more into detail about what tiles you select for your cities and which improvements you build as well. I've been doing ICS but that's the thing I've kind of been wondering about. I've usually ignored growth after size 2 for every city in the start and just tried to max out production, is this what you do or do you focus more on gold at the start as well?

On Immortal and Deity, I usually go for defensible locations and, even more importantly, a defensible city layout. On lower difficulty settings up to Emperor you can get away with settling near or on luxuries first but in Immortal that's quite a gamble.

Going for defensible settings also allows you to hook up cities with a minimal amount of roads. My first three cities are often hooked up with just three road tiles. Improvement-wise I personally like trade posts a lot. I will, of course, build luxuries and roads first, and then put my settlers to work on trade posts and the like. Sometimes, I will build mines if I'm planning for a production-heavy city (like the capital) or farms if I don't have enough Maritime CS to supply. Typically, though, gold is a good idea because you can pour it on CS if you need extra luxuries and buy buildings or units with it. When you have enough money to buy Colosseums in cities you found or theatres in your old cities (where the more expensive building is the prefered rush target) things really start rolling.
 
Say for example you got a maritime state off the bat would you have spent 500 gold for the rep then focus on gold over food for improvement tiles? Rather then getting that horseman?
 
Say for example you got a maritime state off the bat would you have spent 500 gold for the rep then focus on gold over food for improvement tiles? Rather then getting that horseman?

At this point, I'd probably have gone with the Horseman. But it won't take long to get 500 again. I'm actually very unlucky in this game as you'll see soon. The problem is if you spend 500 you'll actually want to spend 750 so that would have meant I couldn't have bought a horse, ever.
 
By the way, do you still wonder why you have such a large variance in your games? The whole start is totally based on luck ;)

How about this:

Turn 40ish, Geneva wants me to clear a barb camp. I happen to have an exploring warrior nearby.
I kill the wounded defender, clear the camp, and return the worker. Worker gets immediately recaptured by a marauding barb. Geneva graciously wounds the 2nd barb, and I capture and keep the worker. I spend 2 turns healing in my new ally's territory.

I just earned the equivalent of 865 gold instead of the 25 I was expecting, and the alliance revealed a bunch of territory that my warrior would have spent about 6-8 turns mapping.

This is almost as bad as seeing ruin-upgraded Riflemen running around.
 
Play With Me 2: Iroquois, Part 4 - The German War

Turn 56 - Plan of Assault

Let's take a closer look at Berlin. It's in a pretty defensible position between two rivers which means it's not gonna be a push-over. The easiest route of assault is to swoop around a bit from the north. This will prevent Bismarck from counter-attacking from Berlin and let me gobble up Hamburg a little bit more quickly. I'll post a more detailed tactics in a few turns when my horses arrive.



Bismarck left another barbarian camp unoccupied for me to clear. I wonder if the AI is farming barbs? Does it know to do that? Would surprise me but I guess it's possible.


Turn 57-59 - More culture? Meh

The game reminds me that I can choose a social policy. No, thanks, I say! I discover Kuala Lumpur and Bucharest to the north, two more cultural CS. Note that I might ally one of those for the luxury but I won't take a SP

Vienna, meanwhile, asks me to eliminate Copenhagen. This at least tells me that a maritime CS is somewhere in the vicinity, which is good news. It also tells me the same maritime CS might be attacked soon, which is even better news because liberating grants loads of free influence.

I am done scouting Germany, puny as it is. They have dyes and gold, two sweet luxuries for me to grab. I will end up razing Hamburg, but you should almost always puppet first to grab the land and profit a bit from the city.

I declare war on Bismarck now because otherwise he will ask me what my units are doing and I will have to suffer his first strike: I like declaring a turn in advance better. If I'm lucky, this will also lure out a few of his warriors. I could have sold him my furs but this is another exploit I won't take.


Turn 60

Warsaw is also up there, already allied with Siam. Too many cultural CS in this zero-culture game. Serves me right, I guess

This is the positioning of my horsemen. I will draw arrows detailing the plan of attack. The color tells you the order: Red is the first, Blue the second, Green the third and Teal the fourth. What makes horsemen so overpowered is that you can attack and retreat, which means I can funnel attacks from all four horses through this one tile where Berlin borders the river.




Turn 61 - Ich bin ein Berliner

I'm actually from Darmstadt but the Kennedy quote was too tempting :lol:

My scout, meanwhile, is gangraped by two German warriors. I insta-heal him to get another turn of distraction out of him.

I decide to beeline towards Construction now to unlock those Colosseums. Mining it is.



Berlin is taken by my horses within one turn. No chance for counter-attack for that warrior. The city didn't even get to shoot at one of my horsies. Cities are really pathetically weak in this game - I never even try to defend them but opt instead to lose and re-take them, usually with another unit inside. This is another good point for the zero-culture ICS variant because you will lose all culture buildings when a city is captured.



I now have the largest army of the world. Huzzah!




Turn 62

Both Askia and Augustus offer me mutual open borders but I decline. I don't see a reason until I want to scout them. My horses move into attack formation on Hamburg and my scout shenanigans worked well enough to distract the two warriors another turn so they will arrive only when it's already too late. I don't have mining yet so the worker on Berlin is told to build some trade posts until I can chop the forest with the dyes.




Turn 63

One of my horsemen is attacked by a German warrior, delaying his attack on Hamburg by one turn because he has to clean up the gory mess. The rest of the attack proceeds as planned, however.




Turn 64

One of my horses is killed by the archer. He didn't get his promotion directly but would have had to wait a turn. Rest in peace, my friend, your memory will forever be remembered. His mates enter a battle frenzy and capture Hamburg. I will let them heal before moving on Askia.

I will play around a bit with the Great Warpath: To connect Berlin, I should need no more than two road tiles if I settle the forest in-between. Not bad!


Turn 65

Onondaga finishes another settler. I will put him on spot 3, as planned. I'm not into unhappiness but no matter, that situation will be rectified when I build the first wave of Colosseums. The war against Askia will hopefully be happiness neutral by taking a luxury or two from him. Onondaga will build a replacement horseman, within 8 turns. I will save my money for now until I find Copenhagen.


Turn 68



I found Akwesasme, which starts on a worker. It won't grow to size 2 any time soon anyways and with the three workers I captured from Germany I have 4, still much too low for ICS. I will use my horses to scout a little bit, I really want to find Copenhagen. This reveals Caesar near to Berlin before long, who seems to be ill-disposed towards me. Maybe I should keep Askia as a friend? Rome is infinitely more dangerous at this point.




Turn 71

I find Siam to the south. I made up my mind to go for Augustus' throat. There is a nice patch of open land to what I presume is Rome where my horsemen can rule the land. I will declare on him and try to lure him into that death trap. Montezuma discovers me, he has a lot of money. Still no sign of Copenhagen.





Turn 73 - Monty, my best friend

Monty offers a pact of secrecy against Augustus which I gladly accept. Bucharest points out a barbarian encampment near Berlin to me which I will have to clear. I hooked up my dyes at the end of turn (forgot to manually do it so I can sell them immediately).




Turn 74

I sell one of the dyes to Montezuma for 300 gold. Onondaga finishes a horseman and starts on a library, Osininka turns out another settler (for spot 4, buying the marble tile when I settle) and follows suit.


Turn 75

The Pointy Stick rating shows Augustus in the lead, with Monty close behind and me following a bit later. I find Caesar moved a settler next to one of my horses. I hope he doesn't settle this turn as I only have the one horse there so I have to wait a turn for a second one to come in range.





Turn 76

Construction is finished. Augustus didn't even move his settler, which means I can destroy it before he can settle. Attack, my minions, attack!

I decide to go for Iron Working and Metal Casting now, later researching towards gunpowder. I want to try the longhouse. Ram ends our pact at the end of the turn because of my aggressive behaviour. I tell you, it's a pre-emptive strike!


Turn 77 - Buffalos, for me?

I settle Buffalo Creek and produce another settler. I will use him to settle a bit further east and north than I had initially planned in order to start connecting towards Germany. I decide on a nice spot near Osininka with Marble and Wheat. Buffalo Creek starts building a library.




Turn 78 - Suicide Legion

Caesar decides to dump another legion on my side of the river, which is immediately wiped out. Keep 'em coming, boy! I noticed Berlin started building a library out of its own volition - good thinking of the governor there, I like the guy.




Turn 79

Two more Legions. I get one, the other survives. I have to heal my horses a bit soon but got one reinforcement coming. Brantford is founded, putting me at -7 happiness. It starts with a Colosseum.





Turn 80 - A gift from Rome?



I retreat my injured horses out of the range of his Legion while I wonder why he escorts a worker. Is it for me to ease my improvement troubles? That would be awfully nice of Augustus. Seriously, I don't know what the programmers did there but it seems a bit of a problem to me that the AI does stuff like that so often. He will move the worker away next turn but if my horses hadn't been so hurt, that would've been one free worker for me. I move one of the German workers west to help develop my proper land a bit.




Turn 83 - Bribery

I pay Monty 230 gold to get in on the war against Caesar. I think it's a good investment and I still haven't found a maritime CS so don't have anything very important to do with the money. Onondaga finishes the Library and starts a Colosseum - time to get the happiness rolling in. I decide not to run any scientists yet. Harun al-Rashid finds me at the end of the turn, so I'm just missing one acquaintance.


Turn 85 - Counter-Attack

My horses are healed so I start a counter-attack on Rome. The problem is that crossing the river here is probably not a good idea so I have to look for a better spot. I set one over due north.




Turn 86 - More Suicide



Well he didn't know it but a human would have anticipated that sending a settler in the direction where three Legions were previously wiped out is probably not the brightest idea. It turns out I'm a bit too close to Rome - hope my horse survives the next turn. Akwesasme finishes a worker and starts on a colosseum.




Turn 87

Montezuma and Askia enter the middle ages. My horses take some damage, ballistae are overkill.


Turn 88

Where does he get all those Legions from, anyways? I decide to retreat behind the river again.




Turn 89

Iron Working is finished and I find a nice whopping 6 iron near Buffalo Creek. Fighting Barbarians unlocks my first Great General. I hope he will give me an edge against the Legions of Doom.




Turn 91 - To Set A Scheme In Motion

I decide to try something. Do you see this iron mine? If it's Rome's only source, and I pillage it, that should make sure his units all have a -50% combat modifier, rendering them pretty harmless. Worth a try, isn't it? The risk is small, too, because Horsemen can move after pillaging.




Turn 93 - The magic medicine worked!



Mwahahaha totally weak Legions. Looks like my plan worked. I never actually tried doing this before because the AI's amount of swordsmen or horses is usually not so huge to make it very worthwhile. Try to remember to keep an eye open for such opportunities, though! They can mean a huge difference. As it turns out, Caesar hadn't even gotten around to founding a second city thanks to my settler-killing and his henge-building (I'm really getting a lot of culture for a zero culture game). Well, that was easy. I think I will stop my conquering spree for now because I have ample of living space. Unless Monty or Askia attack me, that is.





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Enjoyed reading? Suggestions or questions? Let me know.

After a long hiatus, here is Part 5
 
Awesome stuff. A few points/questions:

1. Thanks for the demo with pillage the iron resource. I did not know that. I assume the same is true with an enemy that has a horse-based unit? You pillage the pasture, horseman is now -50%? Also, what if Rome had 2 iron resources and you pillage one?

2. You mentioned you didn't have enough workers at one point for an ICS. How many workers do you consider is enough? In my current game, I know I didn't have enough. Are you looking at 1 worker per city?

3. You said you were going to raze Hamburg but before you wanted to profit from it. What did you mean? Make it a puppet and raze it when you have built your own settlers to settle your own cities nearby your initial cities? If so, that's brilliant.

4. Finally, you settled a new city and immediately started building a coloseum. Aren't you concerned that with a lack of production the new city has, it will take for ever to get the coloseum?

Anyways, keep up the good work. Makes me want to try the Iroquois now.:)
 
Yes, enjoyable, and interesting to see if you can pull zero culture off.

Someone wrote, "I'd recommend Metal Casting for the amazing Longhouses." I'd also recommend Engineering for the lumbermills, then prep a forest heavy city with both for the FP build. FP is more important than ever with zero culture.

Gotta find Copenhagen asap, therefore.
 
Another question...

Say you decide to go for a space race. At one point to you start preparing by designating which cities will build the parts. I mean, I assume you'd purchase the necesaary buildings to speed things up, but with a ICS, do you prep 2 or 3 cities very early or wait until you are hending down the proper tech path?
 
Awesome stuff. A few points/questions:

1. Thanks for the demo with pillage the iron resource. I did not know that. I assume the same is true with an enemy that has a horse-based unit? You pillage the pasture, horseman is now -50%? Also, what if Rome had 2 iron resources and you pillage one?

2. You mentioned you didn't have enough workers at one point for an ICS. How many workers do you consider is enough? In my current game, I know I didn't have enough. Are you looking at 1 worker per city?

3. You said you were going to raze Hamburg but before you wanted to profit from it. What did you mean? Make it a puppet and raze it when you have built your own settlers to settle your own cities nearby your initial cities? If so, that's brilliant.

4. Finally, you settled a new city and immediately started building a coloseum. Aren't you concerned that with a lack of production the new city has, it will take for ever to get the coloseum?

Anyways, keep up the good work. Makes me want to try the Iroquois now.:)

I'll reply in kind:

1. Yes, this is true for every strategic resource, and it works against you, too, if you lose your source. If you have multiple sources it depends: The penalty becomes active when you have more units than sources. This makes relying on imported strategic resources very risky, which is why the only time importing some would be useful is in the situation that you just lost your own source.

2. I don't have a good answer to this. I generally go by "however many I can cram in without sacrificing too much growth". My land is typically pretty underdeveloped when playing ICS but since I normally go for specialists, that doesn't concern me too much (and science is the main gain from the cities at any rate). In my last game I had 18 and they were still not enough to really improve everything I settled any time soon and I had a large backlog. I guess 30 is more like it, but I just fit them in whenever a city has nothing really important to build.

It's easier to notice if you have too many than too few because workers will start having to walk long ways. The Iroquois should be able to save some worker turns because they need fewer roads.

3. Yes, there's not much point in razing the city before I have settled the space in between and actually start expanding in the area. So I leave the cities as puppet for some time and when a golden age comes around I annex and raze them. Sometimes I keep them, too, because puppets often aren't so bad if you just trade post the land around them.

4. No, what do I care if it takes 25 turns to build even factoring in growth? I emphasize production and go for the colosseum. Later I like to go library first to make better use of the quick growth and build the colo second. 20 turns is nothing, really, you have to remember that I will have 10 cities building a colosseum in 20-30 turns, which yields some output.

Yes, enjoyable, and interesting to see if you can pull zero culture off.

Someone wrote, "I'd recommend Metal Casting for the amazing Longhouses." I'd also recommend Engineering for the lumbermills, then prep a forest heavy city with both for the FP build. FP is more important than ever with zero culture.

Gotta find Copenhagen asap, therefore.

Yes that's probably a good suggestion. I will look at getting a good production city up. The problem is that there seem to be few maritime city states in this game, just tons of cultural ones. Conversely, I lately played a game where I found only a single cultural one (which was conquered by Rome) and a lot of maritime ones. Just another huge luck factor I guess. Best is if you can take two cultural and two or three maritimes in my opinion. Although when you stop horizontal expansion, the more maritimes you have the merrier. I've successfully stayed happy in a game with six maritime allies by buying Theatres.

Another question...

Say you decide to go for a space race. At one point to you start preparing by designating which cities will build the parts. I mean, I assume you'd purchase the necesaary buildings to speed things up, but with a ICS, do you prep 2 or 3 cities very early or wait until you are hending down the proper tech path?

Personally, I don't prepare very early but it's probably a good idea. Normally you'll want 3 production cities or so anyways that gobble up tiles from neighbouring cities so you can use these for the spaceship parts. An important thing to keep in mind is rivers which yield an absurd amount of production with a hydro plant in a golden age. In one of my large-city games this boosted my capital to > 100 hammers.

Where I'm totally unsure is the best tech path. I'm fairly sure going for writing before Construction is correct because the specialists are a huge boost at that time but after I pick up construction I simply don't know what's best anymore. You can try to get to renaissance ASAP by means of Gunpowder, you can try to beeline Taj, or you can try to beeline the FP. All are excellent options. I mostly go for the FP but I feel like Chichen Itza + Taj, then FP might be better because you'll have a golden age when you build the FP. Golden ages in general add a ton of money and allow you to buy theatres and science buildings later on as well as more city states.
 
Going for Colosseums with size 1 cities usually yields a return of 75 expected turns to complete. It doesn't take that long, usually, since the cities do grow, but with neither Maritime nor Farms, growing itself takes a while. I'm not entirely sure how long it actually takes, but 20 turns sounds unrealistically optimistic.
 
I'm a little miffed. I've read through about 4-5 threads on these forums that are walkthroughs for ICS. I thought it would be interesting to give it a shot myself. My results were wildly different.

Here's a summary:
* Closest horses were about 15 tiles from my capital.
* Bismark spawned as a very close neighbor. He had a swordsman out by turn 55 and a landsknecht by turn 70.
* No maritime city states on starting continent

What do you guys do? Just restart until you get favorable conditions? Or do you have a slightly different procedure depending on what you get? So far all the games I've followed go: well, I got four horseman, allied with 2 maritimes, conquered my nearest neighbor by turn 50, started spamming cities...
 
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