Play With Me 2: Iroquois Zero-Culture ICS

javaja

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Stealth Orbit around a Rogue World
I've typically beelined FP, because while the AI doesn't prioritize Taj, the chance of missing it combined with the fact that I can pop GGs (generally have more generals than I need to escorty troops) for Golden Ages around the time I hit Industrial, makes the long build time for Taj not worth it to me.

2 Questions. 1: Early game, would you think it's better to spam Colliseums in new cities to promote rapid expand, then start with Libs once Writing finishes?

2: What are you building in "filler" cities when: a) You're unhappy capped (-9 or lower), b) they already have a Colliseum and Library, and c) you don't need workers. I'd also like to know if this answer is different early/mid/late game

Generally I've just been popping units, but I guess I'm not all that sure it's worth it to pop a warrior pre-archery when I haven't got any horses left, and 2 scouts are the absolute maximum I find are worthwhile.
 

javaja

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Stealth Orbit around a Rogue World
I'm a little miffed. I've read through about 4-5 threads on these forums that are walkthroughs for ICS. I thought it would be interesting to give it a shot myself. My results were wildly different.

Here's a summary:
* Closest horses were about 15 tiles from my capital.
* Bismark spawned as a very close neighbor. He had a swordsman out by turn 55 and a landsknecht by turn 70.
* No maritime city states on starting continent

What do you guys do? Just restart until you get favorable conditions? Or do you have a slightly different procedure depending on what you get? So far all the games I've followed go: well, I got four horseman, allied with 2 maritimes, conquered my nearest neighbor by turn 50, started spamming cities...

The results that you're reading about are fairly common. I started a Standard/Emperor/Pangea game with Wu Zeitan today and had Horses within 3 tiles of capital, and Monty 15 tiles away, conquered his capital by turn 50 and he had no other cities. I haven't found a Maritime CS yet, so I have a farm by capital and second city -- I'm keeping most cities at size 2 until Maritime CS is found anyway, so that's not bothering me too much. Growth isn't an issue if you can work 2 strong production tiles -- I prefer gold / silver mines in the early game, but there's others that aren't too bad.

If you see no horses, I imagine you'd go for a rifleman rush. A decent thread on how to do it is here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=392839. At the very least, I'd go for Iron Working for swords and Math for Catapults. Siege is very powerful.

Also in the right conditions, 2 warriors can take an early capital. It's all about playing to the strengths of the map. ICS is possible with any of these, horses are just (generally) the strongest option, and also very often easily accessible.
 

Syntax Error

Prince
Joined
Oct 14, 2010
Messages
544
I'm trying something like this. Those forests are really great for skimping out on the maintenance of roads. Sadly, no great, big forests on my start location, but I did manage to make 5 cities and kill off an enemy Civ (Catherine, she's now a captive in my VERY special tower) before the AD's.
 

alpaca

King of Ungulates
Joined
Aug 3, 2006
Messages
2,322
I'm a little miffed. I've read through about 4-5 threads on these forums that are walkthroughs for ICS. I thought it would be interesting to give it a shot myself. My results were wildly different.

Here's a summary:
* Closest horses were about 15 tiles from my capital.
* Bismark spawned as a very close neighbor. He had a swordsman out by turn 55 and a landsknecht by turn 70.
* No maritime city states on starting continent

What do you guys do? Just restart until you get favorable conditions? Or do you have a slightly different procedure depending on what you get? So far all the games I've followed go: well, I got four horseman, allied with 2 maritimes, conquered my nearest neighbor by turn 50, started spamming cities...

I don't like restarting, otherwise I'd probably have restarted this position with just two luxuries available in the vicinity. I try to look at what the game throws at me and do my best. If horses are so far away I typically don't go for HBR but take Archery instead and don't attack before I can get a good production running on my own.

Edit: As for the questions, I typically build half libraries half colosseums. Once I get a lot of maritime food I will go for more libraries and buy or build the colosseums later. When those are done I often build Universities, Markets or units. The universities make themselves felt because they yield a +60% bonus (+50% and a scientist)
 

yanner39

Emperor
Joined
Sep 17, 2008
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1,384
Location
Ottawa, Canada
I'm a little miffed. I've read through about 4-5 threads on these forums that are walkthroughs for ICS. I thought it would be interesting to give it a shot myself. My results were wildly different.

Here's a summary:
* Closest horses were about 15 tiles from my capital.
* Bismark spawned as a very close neighbor. He had a swordsman out by turn 55 and a landsknecht by turn 70.
* No maritime city states on starting continent

What do you guys do? Just restart until you get favorable conditions? Or do you have a slightly different procedure depending on what you get? So far all the games I've followed go: well, I got four horseman, allied with 2 maritimes, conquered my nearest neighbor by turn 50, started spamming cities...

The situation you've presented with Bismark doesn't happen all the time. In my last 2 or 3 games, either fractal or continents, I've had more than enough land to peacefully ICS before I had to go to war. Also, there is the iron option where you could rush with swords. In AH doesn't reveal horses, maybe beeline IW.

If you don't have any maritime CS on your continent, build a workboat and see if you can reach a smaller land mass where you'll find a CS. Even if your cities don't grow in the early going, the cash from Trade Routes will build up your coffers so that when you do finally find a maritime CS, and you'll probably be the first, you have the cash to ally with it.
 

HermannLombard

Warlord
Joined
Mar 2, 2006
Messages
277
2: What are you building in "filler" cities when: a) You're unhappy capped (-9 or lower), b) they already have a Colliseum and Library, and c) you don't need workers. I'd also like to know if this answer is different early/mid/late game

Generally I've just been popping units, but I guess I'm not all that sure it's worth it to pop a warrior pre-archery when I haven't got any horses left, and 2 scouts are the absolute maximum I find are worthwhile.
Unless one of the patches changed it, you can build and disband units, converting hammers into gold.
 

javaja

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Messages
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Stealth Orbit around a Rogue World
Okay, so basically I'm just not getting Coliseums early enough. I'm usually hitting -9 happy with 2 settlers waiting to drop, already have 4 horses and conquered first capital, all immediate resources claimed.

So maybe my question ought to be: Calendar or Construction first?
 

JustAnother

Chieftain
Joined
May 31, 2010
Messages
57
Play With Me 2: Iroquois Zero-Culture ICS

Welcome to my second public game, where I'll try to show just how broken ICS is by almost completely ignoring an integral part of the game: Culture. I've seen a lot of posts where people claim that you want to wait and grab Communism for an ICS approach.

Well, I'll let you in on a little secret: I've played plenty of ICS games and so far I took Communism exactly once, to test it out. By the time you can get Communism I'm usually done settling my whole landmass.

The policy I will try to get for ICS is Meritocracy, which means 3 social policies. If I can get a fourth one that is an unexpected bonus and would probably be the base Freedom policy.

From the way you played , it doesn't show how broken ICS is. You are just showing how broken rushing AI is esp with broken horseman. Game will have end the same with the same rush.
 

alpaca

King of Ungulates
Joined
Aug 3, 2006
Messages
2,322
From the way you played , it doesn't show how broken ICS is. You are just showing how broken rushing AI is esp with broken horseman. Game will have end the same with the same rush.

So far, yes. Germany and Rome are both annoying warmongers who I'm pretty sure would have attacked me some time soon because that's what happened in practically all my games I played with them. I will stop the conquering now.
 

alpaca

King of Ungulates
Joined
Aug 3, 2006
Messages
2,322
Sorry, I think I have to put this on hold for a while. I won't have time to continue this game for at least one and a half week due to work this week and a vacation this week-end and early next week. I'll resume the game when I get back near the end of next week ;)
 

javaja

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Messages
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Location
Stealth Orbit around a Rogue World
Sorry, I think I have to put this on hold for a while. I won't have time to continue this game for at least one and a half week due to work this week and a vacation this week-end and early next week. I'll resume the game when I get back near the end of next week ;)

=O A vacation? Aren't those for playing moar CiV? xD
Have fun, will keep on lurking upon your return.
 

RagnarIceblood

Chieftain
Joined
Jun 29, 2006
Messages
26
Sorry, I think I have to put this on hold for a while. I won't have time to continue this game for at least one and a half week due to work this week and a vacation this week-end and early next week. I'll resume the game when I get back near the end of next week ;)

almost 2 weeks now! Get on with it! :whipped:
 

boehj

runnin' tings
Joined
Oct 3, 2010
Messages
172
Totally forgot about pillaging in this Civ. Thanks for reminding me.
 

alpaca

King of Ungulates
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Aug 3, 2006
Messages
2,322
Alright, although I'm wondering if I should restart this game because it was started before the patch. I also learned a few things since I left off.
 

bryanw1995

Emperor
Joined
Oct 10, 2006
Messages
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Location
San Antonio, TX
I like this game, it's definitely a challenge for you b/c of no sp's and so far at least no maritimes. ics + no sp's + no maritimes should at least be a bit harder, right?
 

gaiko

Warlord
Joined
Jul 10, 2003
Messages
225
Yes, restart with the patch, show us what you've learned.

Finish before next patch:)
 

alpaca

King of Ungulates
Joined
Aug 3, 2006
Messages
2,322
Ok, since I'm lazy I decided to keep this game. Will post an update later.
 

alpaca

King of Ungulates
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Play With Me 2: Iroquois, Part 5. The Dark Empire returns.

After leaving this game alone for a while, and some gentle nudging from posters, I will now continue the story of the Iroquois path to world domination (real domination, not the cheesy domination victory).

For a bit of fun, and because I feel like it, I will emulate aimlessgun's styles by adding speech bubbles to some pics. Steady as she goes!


Turn 94

Osininka finishes a library. The patch has introduced a feature that is very useful for ICS: The "Avoid Growth" checkbox now actually means the city won't grow, even if it has food surplus. This allows you to micromanage your happiness a lot better.



Taking a good look at the game, I will try to get Metal Casting in 6 turns, and go to steel afterwards. I will get a few warriors, upgrade them to Mohawks, which in turn are upgraded to Longswordsmen while keeping the "good in wood" bonus upgrade.


Turn 95 - Finally a proper palace! All marble is hereby confiscated for royal use.

Well, one of our workers hooked up marble. I will put this to good use at some point, the royal bathroom needs some more stylish furniture. I am a bit concerned Montezuma insulted me, what with him being right next to Rome and all, so my horses go a-scouting a bit.



After the patch, I adopted a different stance towards selling strategic resources. Since the AI will only give you something for it if they really want the resource, I am now fine with it. I implement this by selling 5 iron to Harun for 220 gold.


Turn 96 - Insulting behaviour

As it turns out, insulting me is all the rage these days. Askia and Ram follow in Montezuma's footsteps and make meanie comments about my culture and economy, respectively.



I find Edinburgh who are at war with the big, bad, human-sacrificing Montezuma.


Turn 97

I forgot I already had marble. So I sell it to Montezuma to allow him to build a new sacrificial altar on his temple-pyramid for 200 gold.


Turn 98 - Monty foiled



Looks like Monty's jaguar warriors aren't doing so great against 20-defence Edinburgh. Serves him right, go Scotland! Interestingly, he's next to Greece, and Alex is bribable for something like 450 gold. I settle for a pact of secrecy right now because Monty is not a direct threat but if I have to win a bit of time to move my army, it's good to know that Alex is available.



I think the game hates me. I find another cultural and a militaristic city state to the north-east of Rome. No sign of Oslo, or any other maritime CS for that matter.


Turn 99 - almost a hundred! Way to go!

I liberate a worker from the barbarian camp. I think he will be put to good use as a slave in my darth empire.


Turn 100 - what, the party's over already? And I don't even have a proper hangover...

You can always count on Alex being hyper-aggressive. He asks me whether we want to declare war on Montezuma, and I agree that, on turn 110, we shall do so. This will keep Alex's aggro off me, and give my horsemen something to do. The next turn he will offer a pact of cooperation, too, which I eagerly sign.

Metal Casting is finished. I research archery in 1 turn before I get too much science waste. It turns out that Metal Casting (or the medieval era?) obsoletes warriors, didn't know that.


Turn 101 - Maritime 101



Hooray! Servants, let us enjoy a national holiday (unpaid and with drink at your own expense)! One of my scouts found Oslo! I will immediately dump 1000 gold into them. Which reveals...



Now I am poor. Anything to feed my people. And two luxuries, too. So bring on the settlers. Six settlers eat 18 happiness when settled, so I should be fine if I continue building colosseums afterwards. I think there must be some bug with my iron deposits because according to my count I have 6 hooked up but am selling 10.





Turn 102 - Askia sticks his sword into the ground

You know what that means, yes? It means war. There will be hell to pay, but the paying will all be done by Askia if I get my way.


Turn 103 - Siamese pre-lephants

Oh well, another one to join the fun. I switch Buffalo Creek to a Mohawk and move my old warrior south. I don't think this horse scout has good odds of survival after being surprised by Ram.




Turn 104 - I told you they were meanies

Well, this is some typical post-patch behaviour. If you take out two enemies or so, a lot of other blokes will gang up on you. The horseman that was surprised by Siam died, too.



One of the most annoying things in Civ5 is that you always have to calculate how much science waste you'd have and micro-manage your scientists accordingly (at least if you don't want a lot of wastage). I want overflow!



So this is where all the naval CS were hiding. If only I had found it earlier.


Turn 105 - Madness is spelled with two s

Turns out neither Songhai nor Siam could be bothered to wait for their war agreement. They declared on me again. Songhai brought Vienna in on their side, too. This suits me fine because I was planning to destroy that CS anyways (what with it being right in my projected territory) and I always hate it if I have to declare war on them.




Turn 106 - A pleasant surprise

Alex can't wait, either (like a child, the AI is quite impatient) and declares war on Montezuma. Not that I mind.



Askia wants to take Buffalo Creek so I upgrade my warrior and buy another Mohawk in the city. Next turn, neither of them will stay inside of it so if it falls I won't lose a unit at least. He has more units than I anticipated, however. This looks like bad news.

Siam is handled more easily, Berlin pings to death a warrior and one of my horses kills an archer.


Turn 107 - The pain, oh the exquisite pain




Turn 108

You remember those two Mohawks where at least one was doomed to die last turn? Let me update that picture for you.



In other news, note that in the .62 patch your puppets now focus on gold. This makes trade-posting them even more useful.




Turn 109

Im Westen nichts Neues.



Im Osten aber schon.




Turn 110 - Superstitious fools




----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, that's it for today folks. I hope you had fun and an instructive read, although it was once again more about war than about ICS. Sorry for that, but nothing much happened economically. I'll found a couple new cities soon, though.

Edit: Part 6 is online
 
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