Play With Me 2: Iroquois Zero-Culture ICS

I had trouble reading those red colored captions.
 
Ok, I will use different colors if I do something like this again ;)

The screens aren't too important, anyways.

Edit: Maybe try clicking on them and look at the full-size version. It's more readable there.
 
Play With Me 2: Iroquois, Part 6

Or: How the AI is too stubborn for their own good.

Turn 110

Kuala Lumpur is sitting on the spot where I want to found another city. Quite annoying, this. I hope they will move next turn.



Turn 111

Brantford finishes another settler. My aim is to connect my German holdings to my core as quickly as possible. I don't think there's a compelling reason to go out of my lattice (and sacrifice land-coverage) at this point in time. So I will settle in the indicated positions.




Turn 112

I noticed that the movement bonus provided by my forests is quite strange: They don't count as roads. Instead, you only need 1/2 movement point when you move into forests. This will require some additional roads to avoid ending the turn on some hills, for example here




Turn 113

I finish steel but Askia makes me some gifts. Because I'm stupid and move a Mohawk before the other kills the adjacent archer, I have to wait until next turn to upgrade this Swordsman.



An important note: Swordsmen become obsolete when you research gunpowder. Normally, you might want to follow up the Longswords with rifles ASAP. In my case, I want to build a couple more Mohawks with their awesome +50% in forests promotion before I obsolete them.

I like Universities so I will move towards Education now. As you can see, my research isn't that great at this point due to my early conquests, which eat into city building. Nowadays, I prefer to slap down 4 or 5 cities sword- or horse-rushing.



I decide on Brantford as my second primary city, which will be allowed to grow and build a Longhouse. I start on a Longhouse even before finishing the Colosseum. Brantford can have 6 forests easily, with a potential to grow to 9.




Turn 115

Philosophy finished, I build another Mohawk in Onondaga. Akwesasme finished a settler and continues its Colosseum.


Turn 117



I retake Buffalo Creek and found two new cities. This is the state of my empire.



I am often shuffling around scientists in my three cities which have a library in order to avoid beaker overflow. This is not strictly necessary but I'm quite annoyed by wasting too many beakers.

Alexander is, unfortunately, making good progress against the Aztecs.


Turn 121

Alexander defeated Montezuma. This is quite annoying, really, but there's nothing I can do about it at the moment. Ram is moving on Berlin, and instant heal is annoying the hell out of me once again (I seriously hate this promotion, it's just never fun to me, neither when I use it, nor when it's used against me).





Turn 123



I capture Vienna and, since this puts me at -14 happiness, raze Hamburg now (it started building a temple! of all things!). Onondaga finished another Mohawk and will build a Longhouse for a spell.



Berlin is still under pressure from Siam but for some reason those swordsmen haven't attacked the city yet. Askia is also moving again, which means I need my Longswords back west pretty soon.




Turn 124

I buy a forest tile for 110 gold in order to connect Vienna to my "road" network. I can't found a city in between and waiting for cultural spread would take too long. The alternative would be building a road there but this would mean my units would have to stop when they try to move through the area.



Osininka finishes a settler. With no cultural city state allies in this game, I decide to spend some money on buying a Colosseum there. This will allow me to run two scientists in the city, which is nice.

Vienna has a couple of lumbermills in place. I will probably annex the city at some later point and turn it into a production city. The location is bang in the middle of the woods, which should be great for the Iroquois. I don't have mathematics yet, however, so annexing it isn't a good idea.


Turn 125



These statistics don't bode well. Still, I can't help but continue draining Songhai and Siam because they just won't sign peace and keep coming, the freaks. As an aside, the AI isn't actually so toothless when using horsemen. I almost lost a Longsword in Vienna to them attacking the city.

I sell my gems to Harun for a bit of money and some GPT (remember I get some from a CS ally).


Turn 126/127

Onondaga produces a Great Scientist. I decide to save him for a rifling or artillery bulb later on. As you can see, I'm mostly building Colosseums to prepare for the next settler wave.




Turn 128

Hamburg is razed, which drops me down to Very Unhappy again because I needed those dyes. Unfortunately, my settler didn't arrive in time so I'll have to pay Alexander 300 gold for Cotton to prevent the production debuff. I decide to pick up Sailing before I'm going to waste too many beakers on it and then head for the Forbidden Palace, which is extra-useful for ICS (especially zero-culture).


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So far, I quite like the Iroquois UA, even though the movement feels like a bug more than a feature. The trade route bonus is very significant, I make 40 profit from trade routes and I mostly just have size 2 or 3 cities at the max. Go on to Part 7
 
Thanks for making another public game. I enjoy your write-ups quite a bit.

I love the turn-117 empire overview shot. After the fall of Vienna, it looks like you're about to close the loop and have a bunch of backfilling to do. I always find that to be an exciting time, though perhaps a bit less so playing without SPs. Have to watch that expansion rate a lot more closely...
 
Thanks for making another public game. I enjoy your write-ups quite a bit.

I love the turn-117 empire overview shot. After the fall of Vienna, it looks like you're about to close the loop and have a bunch of backfilling to do. I always find that to be an exciting time, though perhaps a bit less so playing without SPs. Have to watch that expansion rate a lot more closely...

Yes, I was actually not planning to take any more cities after Rome fell but since I was attacked I might raze a few of Siam's cities while I have the opportunity. Ram settled quite close to my territory so I'd like to cut him back a bit before he settles into it.

The backfilling part isn't something I enjoy that much because it's just plopping down cities and building colosseums and libraries ;)
 
Yes, I noticed. Thanks for pointing it out, though.

If I don't finish it before the patch I guess I'll just have to choose some of the less useful Social Policies.
 
Yes, I noticed. Thanks for pointing it out, though.

If I don't finish it before the patch I guess I'll just have to choose some of the less useful Social Policies.
Assuming that you're not playing for achievements, maybe you can mod out that change so that you're not compelled to take SP. [I actually went online recently so I may have some achievements, but if so I don't know about them! Now I'm definitely back in offline mode--and I disable my network connection before launching the game--until and if I decide I want the patch.]
 
Now I'm definitely back in offline mode--and I disable my network connection before launching the game--until and if I decide I want the patch.]
That will work until you're forced to go online again to reactivate the game if you wish to keep playing it.
 
Assuming that you're not playing for achievements, maybe you can mod out that change so that you're not compelled to take SP. [I actually went online recently so I may have some achievements, but if so I don't know about them! Now I'm definitely back in offline mode--and I disable my network connection before launching the game--until and if I decide I want the patch.]

Yes if it's not hard-coded that's an option.
 
Play With Me 2: Iroquois, Part 7. A gilded cage

Welcome to part 7 of my zero-culture ICS game. By now, the no-social-policies-policy is rearing its ugly head. In a normal ICS game, this playset would see me a lot better off because I would have Meritocracy and/or Freedom. But Freedom is for hippies and Meritocracy is for evil wall street managers, so who cares?

I will probably try to finish this game a bit more quickly than I was going to because of the many changes in the announced patch. If you can't read something on the image, try clicking it to see the full-size version. Now, on to the action!



Turn 130

I finish two settlers. I decide on the indicated positions. Vienna will disturb my lattice a bit but nevermind. The positions I chose will allow me fast movement through between Vienna and Berlin, which is quite useful strategically.




Turn 131

I am still occasionally surprised by just how stupid the combat AI behaves. This turn, two units suicided into one of my Mohawks-gone-Longswordsmen and the AI gave me my pick of archer or crossbowman to simply walk over. Just here for the facepalm potential, really, and because it's so sad. The strategic AI isn't doing much better: I still can't get peace from either Siam or Songhai.






Turn 134 - Oh noes!

A barbarian warrior does something dangerous for once: Pillaging my only spices. Since I'm pushing against the very unhappy limit, this forces me to buy a Colosseum in the city I founded last.



I also capture both of these Siamese cities (capturing 2 workers, nice!) and produce another Great General, who will trigger a Golden Age when I build the Forbidden Palace.




Turn 135





Ok, so I mean business, right? You didn't kind of get that from losing all your armies against me? Sorry, my bad I guess.



Quite a busy turn. I raze both of Askia's cities and alter my settlement plan to settle a bit more aggressively against Siam and cut them off from settling in what I perceive as my territory. I like these spots, they will hopefully allow me to hem in Ram a bit (keep in mind Nakhom Chung will be razed next turn). This will also allow me to get Silver, which I can then sell to someone.




Turn 136

Some tactics: I still have the second-largest army after Alexander, so the only one who is likely to attack me now that I have peace with my sworn enemies is he. He can only really attack Rome, which has an incredibly awesome tactical situation. I will move my horses there, and upgrade them to Knights once I research Chivalry. Due to Rome's excellent position, they should be able to hold it easily against anything Alex could throw at me.






Turn 138

Again, Ram will plant a city between two of mine. I really wonder why they programmed an AI that totally freaks out when you settle anywhere near them but at the same time doesn't expect you to come after them if they do.



I found Buffalo and immediately buy a Colosseum. I have enough money due to the peace deals and nothing I could spend it on usefully, except Cols. I personally like building settler and buying Colosseums because all the Maritime-driven food surplus allows speedy settler production even if you work two scientist slots. Furthermore, buying a Colosseum will mean you get the library in that city up and running a lot earlier.




Turn 140

Cuba follows suit. I also clean up a barb encampment that's been harassing me north of Rome.




Turn 142

I clean up another encampment which was targeted by two city states. Civil Service is finished.


Turn 144



I am building a couple more settlers now, after some cities finished their Colosseums. I have a decent happiness surplus at the moment but it will soon drop again. I spend 1000 on an alliance with Singapore who have pearls nearby (they are improved, but I didn't know that when gifting them). I will soon sign mutual Open Borders with Alexander to scout him out a bit.


Turn 147

Ram declared war on Askia. Isn't he a little warmonger? If I wouldn't be getting a lot of gold per turn from him, I would join the fray on Askia's side but the status quo is more profitable for me.

I sign research agreements with Alexander and Harun al-Rashid. I hope to hell Alex won't attack me before it's finished.


Turn 148

What this image doesn't show is the five additional Hoplites, three CC and Longswordsman further to the east. No kidding!




Turn 149

Another one of those busy turns. I finish Chivalry, then proceed with my plan to bulb Banking. Then my second GG is burned for a Golden Age. I'm beginning to fancy the Longhouse, it grants a quite decent production boost that works for wonders, too.




Turn 150



Pliny says: Alexander really likes pointy sticks (don't ask me where, though)! As if I hadn't known without him. I'm wondering whether I should feed Ram to the wolves. I will definitely do so once I declare on him but probably not before. I don't think he stands a snowflake's chance in hell against Alex. In fact, I'm not so sure about my own ability to withstand an overwhelm once Alex gets Rifling. Mayhap I should try to get it myself.


Turn 155



Well, I kind of saw it coming. Not that I mind, I'm in a great position to drain Alexander of his forces. Even CC can't cross a river without stopping and I have two knights with Shock 3 in Rome.

My empire changed a bit in the last couple of turns, eh? Golden Ages can do that for you. I also annexed Vienna during this GA.

Askia seems to have gone quite insane and declares war on me at the end of the turn. Well maybe me settling 3 cities on his doorstep contributed. But who cares about that weakling, anyways? It's soon time for my city state tithe, too (500 for each of two of my three allies)


Turn 160



Gah! I can steal Gao here. Unfortunately, this puts me at very unhappy for three turns because I don't have enough money to buy the two Militaristic CS as allies for their luxuries.






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That's all, folks! I hope you enjoyed reading. As I wrote in the beginning, this game is weaker than a normal ICS game but I'm still managing to keep on equal footing with a powerhouse (aka run-away) Greece. Need any more proof for ICS power? Stay tuned.

Part 8
 
Play With Me 2: Iroquois, Part 8. The Great War

Last time, my empire really started sprawling when Alexander the (truly) Great attacked me. I was also in a bit of a situation because I stole Gao with a lone Longswordsman which put me at -18 happiness without enough money to buy my way out of it.


Turn 160-165

Nothing much happening. I have to spend two turns at very unhappy before I can bribe the two militaristic city states into alliances. My situation is still precarious, though, as Edinburgh is close to Greece and if Alex decides to pillage (which he should have done immediately but doesn't) I am at -11 again.

I decide to take my stand at Edinburgh because Alex hasn't shown any signs of moving on Rome. My knights are well-upgraded and I have some Longswords as support.




Turn 166 - Debt Sharks

Unfortunately, my fear comes true and Alex pillages my silk in Edinburgh. I am forced to take a substantial loan from Harun to finance buying a Colosseum in one of my cities. This one was close but the Gao Crisis is now (hopefully) over.

On the end of the turn I lose one of my knights to a companion cavalry which rose out of the mists from leagues away. Oh well, can't always win.


Turn 169

A new Great Scientist is born. I'm going to save him for now, I'll probably bulb Artillery with him.


Turn 170

Vienna finishes the Courthouse. This yields +7 happiness and allows for a bit more breathing space. I don't normally annex cities but in Vienna's case I made an exception because it is an excellent production city bang in the middle of a huge forest.



My Mohawk-Longswords, meanwhile, are draining Alex's army. Because I'm again allied with Edinburgh, they heal +2 per turn. Their huge bonuses in woods have created a deathzone where Companion Cavalry rides in, attacks, and... just dies. Doing maybe 1 or 2 damage. Already, Ram has overtaken him in the army rating.



On the end of turn, I receive another not totally unexpected declaration of war. I may lose a city or two to Siam before I can shove him back.


Turn 175

I capture Teotihuacan because it has Cotton. Alexander has The Great Wall, which is quite annoying, I might add.




Turn 178

Oh, one of those turns. Teotihuacan is lost again, along with two Longswords, to a plethora of Companion Cavalry, Hoplites and Muskets. I retreat back in the direction of Rome with what's left of my forces. Siam has Elephants, which is another item of bad news.

On the other hand, the Forbidden Palace is now finished. This is quite good news and worth 27 happiness points. I also retake Akron. A few cities will be allowed to grow a bit further than 2 now (where the additional citizen is most useful) and I switch off "avoid growth" in my primary cities.

I get Compass from a research agreement with Harun I'd signed some time earlier. I don't like the cheesy microing of research agreements, so I don't do it. Askia signs peace.


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I remembered that I was planning to keep updates shorter and more frequent for this game, so this is what I do. It also fits nicely with this game being as tedious as a deity game with all those units spammed by Alex and Ram. In hindsight, I shouldn't have tried to push the offensive but I was too greedy. Read how the story continues in Part 9
 
That was quite an curious round! Deadzone trap is cool tactic for promoted mohawks, really interesting!
Im following the game from the beginning and enjoy your write up!
Hope deity Alexander wont stand vs upgraded and promoted Mohawks :)
 
By the way I feel like Iroquois ICS has nice advantages so far.
Workers have so much time improving hills/forests instead of building roads!
Plus all that road maintenance is sooo low with The Great Warpath!

And lumbermill/longhouse combo during golden ages makes me smile!

1 food FOUR hammers tiles before steampower and 1 food FIVE hammers after steampower is DAMN good tiles to work!

And river wood tiles proved +2 gold on top of that huge production output!

Oh, wait, does The Great Warpath provide railroad connections w/o actual railroads?
 
By the way I feel like Iroquois ICS has nice advantages so far.
Workers have so much time improving hills/forests instead of building roads!
Plus all that road maintenance is sooo low with The Great Warpath!

And lumbermill/longhouse combo during golden ages makes me smile!

1 food FOUR hammers tiles before steampower and 1 food FIVE hammers after steampower is DAMN good tiles to work!

And river wood tiles proved +2 gold on top of that huge production output!

Oh, wait, does The Great Warpath provide railroad connections w/o actual railroads?

I actually prefer trade posts over lumbermills on non-river tiles because of the better synergy with golden ages, at least before steam power (they yield 1:c5food: 3:c5production: 3:c5gold: instead of just 1:c5food: 4:c5production:)

I don't think railroads are provided but I haven't tested it myself. I agree that Iroquois aren't bad for ICS. ICS is probably the only way to get enough tiles into your culture for their ability to actually make a significant difference. The Mohawks are better than I expected, too, especially in defensive wars when you defend your forests against intruders.
 
Forest + Trade Post + Longhouse + Godlen Age = 1/3/3

You get more net resources this way rather than with lumbermills and gold is more flexible. However, Lumbermills are betr for building wonders and projects. Also GA is uncommon with ICS, unless you burn great people.

Edit: Ninja'd
 
Hmm, river tradeposts with longhouse bonus means

1f2h3g base, 1f3h4g during golden ages (cant find how to fit those pretty yield icons)

And river lumbermill with longhouse bonus means

1f3h1g base, 1f4h2g during golden ages.and
1f4h1g base, 1f5h2g after steampower.

Both are pretty good tiles comparing to ordinary values.

I totally agree that tradepost/longhouse more useful, unless its production-specialised city.

The most amazing thing about longhouse it thats base production before any multipliers, capable of boosting both wonders and units. So while playing ICS it helps with both settler spam and tough things like FP, Chichen Itza and Taj Mahal.

Another thing about Iroquois is infinite number of invisible forest-bridges after Construction. So, watching Iroquois workers running around with rocket speed reminds me of indian workers in civ4 :)
 
I actually prefer trade posts over lumbermills on non-river tiles because of the better synergy with golden ages, at least before steam power (they yield 1:c5food: 3:c5production: 3:c5gold: instead of just 1:c5food: 4:c5production:)

I usually also do this, but lately I've been wondering about getting the lumber mill instead. I also tend to value 1 prod = 2 gold roughly when I play, so that a trading post is equal to getting another +1 prod, and as you say, with a GA trading post is better + not to mention secularism or whatever it's called (+1 science from trading post)

Yet it actually costs about 4-5 times the prod cost to rush buy something, which indicates that the value of hammers is actually more than 2 gold. I tend to reconcile this by saying that the rush-buy "price" also includes a premium for getting the item NOW which is fair enough i think (not talking about the actual formula here, just the price :) )

Yet, if you have more production, you will need to rush buy less, so overall it should be better to focus on hammers since you will need to rush buy less, and it's more efficient overall to build things than to rush buy them.

Also, while not hugely significant, a trading post on forest takes 10 turns to build while a lumbermill only takes 6 turns - so that saves you some worker turns.

But it's not exactly clear cut. Overall, I think you can't go wrong with either :)
 
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