Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Kierkegaard, Jun 26, 2009.
^Whoops, my dutch slipped through . Vazal is Vassal in dutch .
I wouldn't mind repercussions
You mean Vassal is vazal in Dutch?
Always on the look for errors!
Whoa, Kierkegaard posts here? Shouldn't you be Danish?
That's not even remotely the same. You can't simply say "hey lets add exploits and hope people don't use them" and apply it to anything that you want. Using tanks as an example is not even close to being a logical argument. It would be possible (and highly probable) that people could make use of the vassal feature without using it to exploit the game. There is no way that a player would make use of tanks at the very beginning without it being exploited.
If people want a free win, they'll play on a lower difficulty or use the WB.
It had already been detailed how exactly that feature would be very exploitative (unless we add additional penalties to human vassal).
Using them as barb-busters, or as military police, or as a force simply to discourage the AI from attacking you isn't worse then human vassalage exploits.
If people want to be vassals, they use the WB too. (BTW, to the OP: you can use WordBuilder to make yourself a vassal).
I like the idea, but it needs to be balanced out so that there are certain reprocussions to becoming a vassal
Mat here has some good ideas.
I think you are missing the point Lone Wolf. In your example you are providing 1 set of rules to the human player (access to the 10 hammer tank unit) and another for the AI (the lack of the ability to build said tank unit) Right now the AI has the ability to vassal (an entire game feature) and the human does not. It IS annoying that I am at war with someone and they vassal to civ B for protection in that war and I have to decide if war is worth it with their master. However, if the AI attacks me I cannot use this same maneuver. When I am at war, its kill or be killed. The player has no "safety net" whereas the AI does. The AI has access to an entire game feature I do not. This is not balanced.
Heck, as far as balance goes I have spent alot of hours modding the heck out of the game to bring it more into balance. Like nerfing/buffing UUs and UBs, helping the AI understand religion doesn't really matter in the game, and other minor adjustments. Civ 4 is simply not a balanced game unmodded.
Rather than saying "this is impossible to add because its impossible to balance" look at where the imbalance is and how to dispose of that strength or weakness and instead replace it with another.
You could just throw it in IMO though and have it as an option. I played Civ 3 long enough to know how to put restriction on myself. Also, I want humans to be able to become vassals yet I have never used world builder. I think that is the point 343danny was trying to make. He would rather have an exploitable version in the game so that he himself can use the game feature as the player because it gives him a feature to the game he does not have right now. And he would rather impose rules on himself in his game not to exploit it than to not have it at all. And I feel the same way on the issue. But ideally, I would like to see it added with a more balanced approach to it.
We just need to adjust the perameters.. (sp?). Anyways, I think even as a vassal you should be able to trade with more than people than your master. However, I think you should not be allowed to trade with anyone your master is cautious, annoyed, or furious with. Basically anyone like that "refuses to talk". Like trying to make peace with someone elses vassal when you are at war. It just ain't a possibility.
The AI's have some extra bonuses and cheats the human hasn't. I view the ability to vassalize the same way.
So what's the point of having it at all, then?
As do I, but only because I have no alternative. It is what it is.
Same reason BTS introduced espionage. It's an added variable to the gameplay. I know I wouldn't exploit it. I also know others would. But them doing it does not effect me in my single player games. So I gain the ability to to vassal just as the AI has the the ability atm. I would just have to set my own rules down as to what I am allowed to do and what not to. It does suck to have to do that when it could just be incorperated with the game but I would rather have the option there and it be on me to not abuse it than to simply not be allowed the feature because Firaxis doesn't "trust me" not to abuse it or whatever. A simply "Allow human to vassal" checkbox would at least put the feature in the game. But I would rather see it come in with a balanced take on it. But this lies in the hands of modders because I am pretty sure Firaxis and T2 are done supporting Civ 4 with patches now that complete is out.
I think that somehow the mechanics should try to "push" the vassal into declaring independance. That is what I have always wanted to center it around if I ever got to modding it. As most vassaled nations and colonies in the real world seek their independance after a long period of being under the rule of a foreign power. Kinda falls under the idea that long distance relationships never work out.
Espionage is the only BTS addition I dislike. And if you're not going to use it, then it's not a variable in your gameplay in the slightest.
So, if you won't use the feature and see it as abusive, why do you want it included? So that others may abuse it?
I don't mind a balanced human vassalage option, though.
I would use it, even in its broken state. I would turn human vassalage on every game. I just wouldn't abuse it. I would not vassalize just for free techs and then burn out on the master. I wouldn't vassalize to use ther master as a way for me not to make military. As a matter of fact, I would probably only vassal if I was about to be destroyed by another civ. But knowing me if it came in this way I would spend some time here and there making adjustments on modding it until it no longer bugged me.
This forum gets me in the mood to mod, then modding gets me in the mood to play. And playing gets me in the mood to come on the forum and see what you all are talking about. And we come back to the beginning of the circle. Although sometimes the boards just get me in the mood to play.
Sorry to bump my old topic, but any chance u have moded sush thing? Or does anyone know a mod where the player can be a vassal?
Naw man, I am a pokey ass at modding lately. All I have really done is glued my mod onto BBAI recently and am now checking out v13 of Planetfall. And I am hooked on it. In between turns on pause as I type this. Hehe. Played all last week with a friend in hotseat mode when v13 first came out.
I will probably get back into modding soon though. By the end of this month for sure. Playing planetfall has started taking its toll. When I jump back in I will give this a look first.
DanF5771 changed it so you could somehow when looking into the war mechanics, but I don't remember how he did it and AFAIK he doesn't post here anymore.
At any rate, the fact that the game has to prevent the human from doing it is a telltale sign that the vassal feature is in bad shape. People say the AI doesn't *try* to win, but BTS AI is scripted to pursue early culture in some cases, and these AI are particularly bad offenders of offering themselves like little . Whats worse, masters feed voluntary vassals techs, as if actively propping the culture whore vassal up to win.
I've been screwed by vassals (and won via abuse of the mechanic) many, many times. IMO this option was never finished code/balance-wise and should not be part of the default game, much like the broken apostolic palace or events only worse since they have a real impact on the outcome of games with frequency.
You can play as a vassal. I've done it before. You use WB.
you should be masochist If you want different tastes, try this:
custom game-->a map like pangaea/highlands/rainforest/great plains-->player+5AI
this is possible. you can play 2 civs as well.
yet, i didn't find neither of them exciting and did quit in half an hour.
Just for the record, the latest BBAI has a option to allow humans to vassal.
True enough. Everything related to vassals, from becoming one, being one and stop being one, is in a half cooked state in the code and it is bound to multiple levels of exploitement... not mentioning the irrational behaviour of masters ( besides the tech gifts, they tend to give and pull back resources with no aparent reason ). Better AI mod already mended some of this issues , but the road for having this minimally fixed is still a long one
BetterAI team is incredible. They have to literally build code...no way they could just "fix" the skeleton code that's there.
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