Playing as a Continuous Civ- A HUGE Mistake

Is this doing nothing scenario not having anything queued, not reseaching anything, etc? At which point of the game did that happen?

Because at the end of the game, its true that there isnt much to do besides that, so its not like you are not doing anything, you are producing and researching. Exploration and expansion are over, conquering is only relevant for a military victory, etc. That is, again, not a snowballing issue

Having great start giving leeway at the end isnt snowballing, again the Formula 1 example i gave before.
Second half of the game. Not the end, but 60-70% of the way through.

Your F1 example doesn't show snowballing. The driver was better and gained a 10 second advantage then kept a 10 second advantage. Snowballing would mean the driver gained additional benefits thanks to the 10 second advantage and then increased the lead by a substantial amount or would be able to make a number of mistakes and still be comfortably in the lead.
 
Your F1 example doesn't show snowballing. The driver was better and gained a 10 second advantage then kept a 10 second advantage. Snowballing would mean the driver gained additional benefits thanks to the 10 second advantage and then increased the lead by a substantial amount or would be able to make a number of mistakes and still be comfortably in the lead.

Of course it isnt snowballing, it shows that you can have an early advantage allowing you a varierty of ways to win without being snowballing, its the point

Thats the point, people are doing good decisions without thinking and think that is snowballing, that is my theory. But if you guys disagree, so be it
 
Of course it isnt snowballing, it shows that you can have an early advantage allowing you a varierty of ways to win without being snowballing, its the point

Thats the point, people are doing good decisions without thinking and think that is snowballing, that is my theory. But if you guys disagree, so be it
The point I was making is if snowballing "mechanics" even exist in Formula 1? I don't watch it so I don't know. I thought it was just racing and changing tyres? Do you think snowballing as a concept exists?
 
I love how quickly civfanatics debates turn into arguments about the platonic ideal of abstract game concepts.

I'd venture that demanding snowballing only exist if a player is not driving it, or doesn't exist if a player can play badly enough to overcome it, might be getting a tad too specific about defining a slightly nebulous idea.
 
That would be a fast way to lose players

Why would i need to be punished for playing well? It makes no sense. The one playing well should win, the one playing BAD shsould be punished and pushed to learning how to play

If you play well, winning IS the LOGICAL OUTCOME
That's why I think any anti-snowballing measure needs to
1. focus on beefing up the competition
AND
2. not be dependent on how well the Human player did
Have the AI bonuses increase each Age. Possibly giver bigger bonuses to AIs that did poorly, and smaller bonuses to AIs that did well...but nothing to do with the Human player's performance.

So say Deity they get a +80% Culture bonus the starting Age (whether Antiquity or Exploration/Modern in an Advanced Start)
Then in the Second age they have an additional +8-120% (typically +40%) Culture bonus (depending on if they did will or poorly)
Then in the Third Age they would get another +8-120% stacked on top of that..... so a Typical Deity AI would have +160% Culture by the end.... but it could be as much as +320%... or as small as+96%

If it was a Viceroy those would all be starting at +20% growing to +24-80%
 
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The point I was making is if snowballing "mechanics" even exist in Formula 1? I don't watch it so I don't know. I thought it was just racing and changing tyres? Do you think snowballing as a concept exists?
No, Formula 1 doesnt have snowball mechanics. You can take an advantage and keep it or making it bigger, but that isnt a snowball

My point is that what people think its snowballing in Civilization, is actually closer to creating an advantage and keep it or making it stronger by virtue of playing better than the opponents
 
That's why I think any anti-snowballing measure needs to
1. focus on beefing up the competition
AND
2. not be dependent on how well the Human player did
Have the AI bonuses increase each Age. Possibly giver bigger bonuses to AIs that did poorly, and smaller bonuses to AIs that did well...but nothing to do with the Human player's performance.

So say Deity they get a +80% Culture bonus the starting Age (whether Antiquity or Exploration/Modern in an Advanced Start)
Then in the Second age they have an additional +8-120% (typically +40%) Culture bonus (depending on if they did will or poorly)
Then in the Third Age they would get another +8-120% stacked on top of that..... so a Typical Deity AI would have +160% Culture by the end.... but it could be as much as +320%... or as small as+96%

If it was a Viceroy those would all be starting at +20% growing to +24-80%

That can be done, sure. But here is the issue, there has to be a way to beat the AI even with those bonuses, and the Humans will learn to play in that way and the just repeat it, and win, every single time.

This is the issue here, people that have been playing the series for decades and have learned the best way to play the game apparently get surprised they can beat the AI easily...

There are people that can beat every single Elden Ring boss naked, without gear. Do they get surprised they do it? No, they got good at the game, they mastered and they know they will beat it without a problem. Its not a game issue, they just mastered the game

Same thing is happening here IMHO
 
That can be done, sure. But here is the issue, there has to be a way to beat the AI even with those bonuses, and the Humans will learn to play in that way and the just repeat it, and win, every single time.

This is the issue here, people that have been playing the series for decades and have learned the best way to play the game apparently get surprised they can beat the AI easily...

There are people that can beat every single Elden Ring boss naked, without gear. Do they get surprised they do it? No, they got good at the game, they mastered and they know they will beat it without a problem. Its not a game issue, they just mastered the game

Same thing is happening here IMHO
Players should be rewarded for playing the game well. But there is a nuance.

Snowballing specifically refers to how a lead compounds over time. This definitely is a thing in every Civ game. Your earlier decisions matter much more than your later ones.

As much as I lean more on the "snowballing is part of the fun of Civ" side of the argument, I can understand the counter position: Because of snowballing we don't play games to completion, civs with late bonuses are innately worse, and the devs have to spend time and money on late game systems which rarely get used as a result.
 
Yes, but that is not happening and it wasnt happening in earlier Civs either. But it specially doesnt happen now. If you play badly in Modern, you will lose. If you dont pick a victory condition and work towards that, doesnt matter how big of an advantage you have, you will lose

Maybe on deity this is true but on lower difficulty levels, you can play badly in the Modern Age and still win. Even without picking a victory condition, you can have such an advantage that you still win on time when the Age ends. I have played suboptimally in the Modern Age on Viceroy difficulty and I still won.

Again, the issue is that people that played well the whole game, and KEEP PLAYING WELL in the endgame, find that the advantage they got makes it easy to win. But that is what should happen


That is my point

I get your point. But I don't think you understand snowballing. Again, snowballing is not playing well the whole game. Snowballing is the fact that early decisions matter more. So any advantage in the early game can have a bigger impact and make it much easier to win later. And the late game becomes much less of a challenge. I played many civ6 games, especially as Rome, where I get early iron, and I steamroll everyone on my continent. I quit the game on like turn 150 because I have conquered my entire continent and I see no point in continuing the game. So I did not need to play well the whole game. I only played well the first 100 turns and quit the game because playing became pointless.
 
I can see the fun in snowballing. For example, in civ6, it is fun to get early iron as Rome and steamroll your neighbors with legions. But then what? If the game loses all interest because you have conquered your continent on turn 100, what is the point of playing? Now some might argue that it is fine if the player quits the game early. If the game was still fun, then it was a good game, even if it was too short. But I think others want the game to present more of a challenge.
 
I can see the fun in snowballing. For example, in civ6, it is fun to get early iron as Rome and steamroll your neighbors with legions. But then what? If the game loses all interest because you have conquered your continent on turn 100, what is the point of playing? Now some might argue that it is fine if the player quits the game early. If the game was still fun, then it was a good game, even if it was too short. But I think others want the game to present more of a challenge.
Another part of this problem is that significant part of the game just becomes not available - late game has a lot of features, which just don't come into play if you quit early. And that could cause frustration in players too.
 
I don't think trying to address snowballing is a bad goal. I just think it backfired horribly in Civ7 - it might have the fastest snowball in any Civ game, and the era transitions - for me - become obvious points to stop playing far earlier than I would have in 6 or before. I definitely get less far into each game that I play.
 
No, Formula 1 doesnt have snowball mechanics. You can take an advantage and keep it or making it bigger, but that isnt a snowball

My point is that what people think its snowballing in Civilization, is actually closer to creating an advantage and keep it or making it stronger by virtue of playing better than the opponents
There are a lot of snowballing mechanics in the games though. What about when you have a good starting location and can research or produce whatever faster than everyone else? Or when you find goody huts and get a free tech or free units, or even just a boost? Or when you have the benefit of not being attacked by barbarians/independent powers. These are just some of the things in the first parts of the game which lead to big snowballing where you don't even have to play well. They're luck based. I'm not against any of these things by the way.
 
The be or not to be of snowballing is really interesting. As someone stated earlier it has been debated a lot on the forum(but I have not been so active in the forum before so haven’t follow the debate earlier) and probably worthy of its own thread. But anyway I would like to chim in:

First: Is snowballing the point of the game?
To some extent it is. Because the game is very much about increasing different productions. Play well and they will increase more. And the more they increase, well the more they will increase next (i.e. accelerate). In that sense it really is a reward for playing well.

Second: If we agree that snowball is a reward/point of the game. Then what to do with the late game when the leading snowball has gotten to big and the winner is obvious. Well there is only one solution. The playing field must be leveled (I.e all snowballs must return to the same size). This can of course be achieved by punishing the leader or boosting the non-leaders. That’s what they tried to do with the ages-resetting I suppose.

But because of the legacies system and attributes the playing field is not entirely leveled.

So I have a thought (so far perhaps not well thought through): What If the legacie points doesn’t give you advantages in the next age? Let’s say they only contribute to a total winning score instead? Then each age can be leveled and each age will be a competition to get the most legaciespoints.

The advantage would be: All ages would still matter in determining the winning player. But in each age all players would have a chance of closing the gap to the leader? I.e in practices: instead of creating one big snowball, each player has to create an as big a snowball possible in each age.

(One embarrising confession though: I haven’t actually played the game to the end. So maybe it’s the case already that all legacies points count towards the winning score. But I have gotten the impression that it is only legacy points in modern age that counts towards winning. Is that the case?)
 
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But because of the legacies system and attributes the playing field is not entirely leveled.
I think it's more the other stuff you carry over! Ageless infrastructure, or even just having cities in better places means you snowball.

I have been turning off legacy paths outside of modern and playing with abbreviated ages to get a less railroaded experience (I really reccommend trying this, I was skeptical but it improves the game several times over). In that mode you get far less attributes and no legacies. And you still snowball hard.

For a score victory I believe it is total legacy paths. But given how quick any victory is I have never achieved a score victory.
 
I think it's more the other stuff you carry over! Ageless infrastructure, or even just having cities in better places means you snowball.

I have been turning off legacy paths outside of modern and playing with abbreviated ages to get a less railroaded experience (I really reccommend trying this, I was skeptical but it improves the game several times over). In that mode you get far less attributes and no legacies. And you still snowball hard.

For a score victory I believe it is total legacy paths. But given how quick any victory is I have never achieved a score victory.

If whatever “reset” is hitting all players equally, then whoever was in the lead at the end of the old age is still in the lead at the start of the new one.
 
I've kind of gotten at this a couple times previously in the thread but I think the snowballing discussion is kinda missing the forest for the trees (the stated aim of the changes attempting to curb snowballing made in 7 wasn't to address any mechanical aspect of game balance arising from snowballing itself, but to mitigate the late game being boring by reducing the likelihood a win is assured by like 1400 BCE; snowballing nerfs were the means, not the end).

Regardless, I do think it's interesting as a topic. Snowballing is kind of inherent to literally any game played over a fixed duration where you obtain things, since the sooner you get an item the greater the percentage of the duration it can benefit you. I don't think it's inherently good or bad - it's just a question of what impacts it has and how they affect the player experience.

To give a few examples of other games where it exists in one form or another:

Slay the Spire is probably the most "snowball-y" game I've played. It's a roguelike where you assemble a deck of cards (and some bonus items called relics) over the course of the run, from which you draw attacks to use in combat encounters. "Good now" is massively better than "good later", since the sooner you get something, the better your chances at opting into harder encounters, which give better rewards, creating a compounding effect. The few things in the game that have delayed effects are generally regarded as being rather weak since a delayed dividend is so unfavourable compared to something that starts benefitting you from the very next encounter. I don't see snowballing as a problem in Slay the Spire because it's a big part of the power fantasy of roguelikes. Lean into that feedback loop of strength begetting strength is not only fun, but outright required to beat the endgame bosses.

That said, the risk of making late-game choices meaningless is still present, and I think the devs get around it in three main ways. Firstly, the game's difficulty assumes you're snowballing - since you fight different enemies over the course of the game (unlike civ), they have the luxury of throwing harder stuff at you, so your win (most of the time - you can outscale the game on a very lucky run) isn't assured until the credits roll. It'd be like if you had a fantastic exploration age and then all the AI leaders despawned and were replaced with "Mecha-Caesar" and "Ascended Lincoln". Secondly, the vast majority of loot in the game leans into the snowballing. As mentioned above, there are only a handful of "good later" items that exist. Most of the time, the choices you're faced with are one "good now" vs. another "good now". Third, and most importantly, Slay the Spire is built around items synergising with each other. A winning deck is typically greater than the sum of is parts, and what that means is that the addition of any single card can be massively impactful. Choices late in the game still matter because you could see a card that completely transforms your deck.

For a worse example, Dead Cells is another roguelike (or roguelite; some people are particular about that distinction) aiming for the same general flow - pick up loot to become stronger over the course of a run. The problem is that Dead Cells has a massive loot pool and every item is sorted into one of three categories, each corresponding to a stat on your character. These stats scale with scroll items you find as you explore, but each scroll you find only lets you choose one stat to raise, and the scaling works like compound interest. What this means is that the minute you use your first scroll, you're basically locked into the stat you chose to raise, because spending even a single scroll on a different stat past that point will result in missing out on hundreds of percentage damage by the end of the run, against enemies who are tuned expecting you to have focused a single stat. This means that two thirds of items - everything that corresponds to a stat you didn't pick - become actively detrimental pickups from the minute you find your first scroll in the first biome. There's no potential to pivot your build, and the only meaningful choice is made 5 minutes into the run, after which you're basically on rails. You still have to play well mechanically, but in order to achieve the roguelike power-scaling fantasy, almost all player agency is sacrificed.

For one last, double-barrelled example, I'm going to talk about two aspects of Pokemon. The first is during a story playthrough, where the Pokemon you catch earliest have the most time to level up, but this is mitigated by the Pokemon you encounter late-game being at a higher level so they can be slotted into your team without a need for catchup grinding (they miss out on EVs, but that's a level of optimisation that's completely unnecessary for a playthrough and in fact probably not even something most casual players know about). The Johto games (Gold, Silver, and Crystal, along with their remakes, Heartgold and Souldsilver) are infamous for having weirdly low-level Pokemon in their late game areas. Whatever your team is, it has to be pretty much decided by the midgame, as everything you encounter past that point will be too low-levelled (without some serious tedious grinding) to hold its own if added to your team. (To any Pokemon fans reading, this is not Johto slander - Johto is my favourite region). Whereas the previous examples above have pretty much every aspect of the game scale with the player, the Johto games inadvertently remove a key part of player decision-making by just forgetting to tune some scaling.

The other Pokemon example is the only other case (out of games I play) I can think of like Civ where a game can be decided before it's over and playing it out would just be a formality - competitive Pokemon. In a 4v4 match, it's entirely possible (and even somewhat common) to have a catastrophic early turn to the point where the game is just mathematically no longer winnable for you. For this reason, there's an option to just forfeit. The difference is that a match of VGC Pokemon lasts around 5 minutes, maybe 10 at most, whereas Civ takes several hours.

So what's the conclusion of this giant wall of text that really jnust amounted to me rambling about games because I think stuff like this is interesting? Essentially, snowballing is pretty inherent to games, but depending on the game and the genre, it manifests differently and can present different upsides and downsides. Civ (and other 4X games) is relatively unique in that options to scale enemies with the player are limited, but I don't think that makes snowballing a problem inherently. What I didn't mention about the Johto Pokemon games was that the enemy level curve is also a little wonky, and many of the late game bosses have sub-par teams. This is a FAR less common complaint than the wild Pokemon levels, however. Because most people aren't playing Pokemon for a gruelling test of strategy. They just want to make a team of creatures they like and have fun using them. Which is why the wild Pokemon levels come under such scrutiny, but Petrel's team of five level 30 Koffing doesn't. Snowballing will only ever be a problem when it impacts on the player having fun.

What that idea of player fun looks like varies, of course - in the roguelike examples, snowballing is a key part of the fun - but in civ I think the general experience most players are looking for is the opportunity to build an empire and manage it through various challenges over the course of history. The problem snowballing poses on that experience is that at a certain point, the challenges cease to exist. The lategame difficulty is an incredibly delicate balance. You don't want to apply debuffs and maluses to frontrunners and have players feel punished for doing well, as has been discussed, but I'd wager that scaling the AI on a curve so they become more threatening as the game goes on would also be unpopular. I suspect most civ players probably want to win the majority of their games. Civ games - unlike Pokemon VGC - are very long, and consistently falling at the final hurdle of an hours-long game as the AI boosts kick in would feel pretty frustrating for most people. Yes, there should be challenge, but the question should be how they overcome it and emerge victorious, not if they'll succeed.

I don't think snowballing is inherently a problem for civ. I just think that how it's thought about and addressed needs to fit the game and its genre. The problem snowballing creates is that endgames become meaningless and therefore boring. So how can that be dealt with to keep the experience players want intact? To me, having hit that critical mass to secure a win isn't inherently an issue, so long as I'm still engaged. The removal of micro helps a lot with this, as does my far greater enjoyment of combat. Even if my empire is strong enough by modern that I could beat the AI to any win I choose, weighing up alliances and ideologies, managing my troops to take the right settlements - that makes for engaging gameplay and I feel like I'm being presented a problem by the game and solving it. It's the polar opposite to the sit-and-wait tourism win in 6. So now they just need to make the other wins equally engaging for people who aren't lunatic warmongers!

(This got waaayyyyyy longer than intended and is especially overkill considering this thread isn't even about snowballing but in case it wasn't apparent the frustrated game designer in me likes talking about this stuff and hopefully someone finds it interesting lol)
 
If we speak about snowballing the main definition to me is cumulative effect, meaning that early advantages (either from random or good play) weight much more than later ones.

Let's assume you found a settler in goody hut (which was possible in some earlier civ games). Now you have double the number of cities, production, science, territory, resources, etc. If everything else in the game is totally equal or even if opponents are slightly better at playing the game, the player with extra city is likely to win, because of huge cumulative effective from this extra settler.

Yes, Civ7 doesn't have settlers from goody huts, but some maps could provide similar effects. Let's say you start near 2 cotton and 2 wool resources. Production in capital skyrocket, you could build strong military without losing expansion momentum, etc. Not as good as extra settler in a first couple of turns, but still enough to give you cumulative advantage.

In those terms, limiting snowballing is a fair goal.
 
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