Playing as a vassal

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by Leoreth, Jan 13, 2020.

  1. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    Though the Master should request the player research something from time to time like players can, with refusal leading to diplo penalties.
     
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  2. MechatronicJazz

    MechatronicJazz Prince

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    You can ask your vassals to research specific techs? I did not know that. Or am I misunderstanding? If that is something a player can do, I agree that AI masters should do the same.
     
  3. need my speed

    need my speed Rex Omnium Imperarium

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    Yes, you can, by contacting your vassal and clicking on the option to speak about other things.
     
  4. Novicenoble

    Novicenoble Prince

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    Is this give a vassal civ bonus for the English civ player? AFAIK there's happiness bonus for master civilization. I know Canadian independence comes far later than English historical goals but might be exploitable when it applies to more civilizations.
     
  5. Ballazic

    Ballazic King

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    -Good question, I think in cases like Canada the requirements for independence (the north/west land grab) tie into victory requirements.
    -Control of foreign policy, most of the time its better to be able to make deals (open borders, make peace) rather than be forced to fight wars or not be able to conquer territory etc. Inversely, going back to the example of Canada. Being UKs vassal could be advantageous as the US would be less inclined to fight the UK and Canada rather than just Canada. In the case of Canada, the land grab objective means you are focusing on settlers etc rather than military. Can vassals only trade with their masters? If so, access to the masters trade routes?
    -I would say a situation where a civilization wants to focus 100% on tech/infrastructure etc rather than focusing solely on defence. In some cases, Egypt becoming Greece or Rome's vassal could be motivated for self-preservation and hopes of outlasting the conquering empire. Independence again would be motivated by wanting to make deals independently.
    -Access to resources, a base of operations in a continent. Trade routes (maybe they wouldnt normally have open borders with you?). Maybe its a region you want to control, but not have the stability hit of actually owning the city?
     
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  6. Kazimier

    Kazimier Chieftain

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    First of all, I really like the idea, both from historical accuracy and pure gameplay perspective.
    I like what everybody is suggesting but I would like to suggest going with baby steps, first creating something with as few new functionalities as possible and maybe reducing the starting pool of "vassal" civs, and then incrementally making it more robust, like making independence requirements historically correct and specific to each civilization that would start as vassal.
    - how do you become independent and how do the benefits of becoming independent compare to the requirements?
    -- If I remember correctly there is already a set of rules that defines when civ becomes independent, like achieving % of masters score or something like that. Why not start with that and maybe adjust it to make it more suited to the fact that you and not AI is playing the vassal.
    - if I spawn as a vassal, what motivates me to become independent? what motivates me to remain a vassal for some time?
    -- Pros for being independent:
    --- Not having to fulfill masters requests
    --- I would add some kind of automatic handicap when you are a vassal like your production/income/research/etc. is lowered by say 15%
    --- Not being limited in new city founding?
    --- Not being dragged into masters wars
    -- Pros for being a vassal:
    --- You don't need to focus on military as you are being protected by your master
    --- Nothing else? In my opinion above point is worth a lot and secondly being a vassal shouldn't be a "better" option in the long run
    - what motivates me to peacefully become a vassal? what motivates me to become independent again after that?
    --- Becoming a vassal: Being at risk of getting attacked by much stronger civs
    --- Becoming independent: When above problem no longer exists
    - what motivates me to keep vassals instead of letting vassals be independent as a master?
    --- War allies
    --- Automatic resource gain, other side of my point 2 in Pros for being independent
     
  7. Hickman888

    Hickman888 Warlord

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    Currently, masters receive +1 :) in their cities for each vassal they have. (Their cities also cost a bit more in maintenance, if they accept a vassal.) Conversely, all vassals receive +1 :mad: in their cities. Furthermore, the master has the authority to demand that his vassal give him :gold:, or begin researching a specific technology that maybe the human had no interest researching. I think this dynamic is fine enough for a human vassal experience, I don't think I like the idea of your :gold:/:hammers:/:science: percentage being further hurt by capitulation.

    Off course, probably the biggest reason that a human would capitulate to an AI is if they simply don't have the military to fight against them. I could imagine a player playing as the Egyptians in a historical game just simply capitulating to the Greeks/Romans when they invade, so that the player may continue his wonder and :culture: goals in peace.
     
  8. bluepotato

    bluepotato Warlord

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    I've tried playing as a human vassal a few times in the past, and I think the biggest advantage I got from it was getting a bunch of free techs. The AI just loves giving its vassals free stuff and barely demands anything. AIs also suck at defending their vassals, so I don't think military protection would be the main reason.
    Okay, it could be if the Human player is losing terribly, as in your example with the Egyptians against the Romans... but then the peace negotiation AI has to be tweaked as well, because it currently isn't willing to talk to you in such cases.
     
  9. TsarAndreas

    TsarAndreas Chieftain

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    Continuing the use of the Egypt-Rome scenario, there would still need to be negative consequences to becoming a vassal vs. achieving a normal peace. For instance, in return for peace, the vassalised Egypt could be forced to provide wheat to their new masters. That would provide another incentive to end vassaldom - being able to have access to your own resources.
     
  10. Hickman888

    Hickman888 Warlord

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    Yeah, the conqueror AI's should be open to accepting capitulation from their victims the turn of, and, if accepted, should treat a human vassal more harshly than it would an AI vassal.
     
  11. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    I think what could make sense to do is to introduce tile stability into the vassalisation considerations. Making the AI more open to vassalise if the enemy mostly controls ahistorical territory would probably see more vassals happen, help the AI with not expanding into unstable territory, and probably get quite close to historical patterns of conquest vs vassalisation.
     
  12. Louis the XIV

    Louis the XIV Sun King

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    Use this code in the CvPlayer.cpp:
    PHP:
       //if (!isHuman() || GET_PLAYER(eWhoTo).isHuman()) //  human can't be vassal of AI      
            
    if (getTeam() != GET_PLAYER(eWhoTo).getTeam()) //Human can be vassal of AI

            
    {
                
    CvTeamkVassalTeam GET_TEAM(getTeam());
                
    CvTeamkMasterTeam GET_TEAM(GET_PLAYER(eWhoTo).getTeam());
                if (
    kMasterTeam.isVassalStateTrading()) // the master must possess the tech
                
    {
                   if(!
    kVassalTeam.isAVassal() && /*!kMasterTeam.isAVassal() && */[getTeam() != GET_PLAYER(eWhoTo).getTeam())  //vassal may not be a master
                    
    {
    Though it might have some bugs. Search for this:
    PHP:
    if (!isHuman() || GET_PLAYER(eWhoTo).isHuman()) //  human can't be vassal of AI
            
    {
                
    CvTeamkVassalTeam GET_TEAM(getTeam());
                
    CvTeamkMasterTeam GET_TEAM(GET_PLAYER(eWhoTo).getTeam());
                if (
    kMasterTeam.isVassalStateTrading()) // the master must possess the tech
                
    {
                    if (!
    kVassalTeam.isAVassal() && !kMasterTeam.isAVassal() && getTeam() != GET_PLAYER(eWhoTo).getTeam())
                    {
    and replace it to the code I gave you.
     
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