Playing into Old games?

[Falcon02]

In a discussion in the Civfanatics chatroom we realized a source of disagreement with what's legal to do with saves, which I think needs to be corrected and made official.

Someone posed the question of if it was okay to play into an old game to find out what the Anarchy length would be ending the turn, using the Domestic advisor. This is where the division came from.

some people felt was that it was alright because the turn wasn't ended and it's outdated information.

However, if this were right, I'd be able to the save before the babs declared war, make sure we have an embassy, and conduct espionage on their cities to get a general idea of what the cities would be like now.

I believe that gaining information in old saves (at least so many turns back) which was unaccessable to us then, should continue to be innaccessable many turns afterwards. Since it would be rather rediculous for us to prevent somone from playing into the 4000BC save (at least AFTER we get the world map...).

 

[Octavian X]

I agree with Falcon here. The only time it is acceptable to play old saves is when it involves Phoenatica. I do take exception to fingers accidentially landing on the space or enter keys (could't they put them somewhere else?). There is, however, a large difference between intention and exception.

We should never reload. This can be equated to predicting the future in real life, and then going back when you find out what that future is. In addition to that, it severly takes away from the challenge of the game, specifically the one involving taking what the random generator throws at you.

While we cannot prevent people from playing old saves, which should discourage it whenever possible.

 

[Chieftess]

I agree, and as a tournament moderator, it's reloading the save, if not a previous to gain beforehand knowledge. In the tournament atleast, you would be banned from playing anymore games. (In the GOTM forum on the other hand....)

 

[FionnMcCumhall]

i think as long as the save does not directly affect the game and is far back from the current save then it shouldnt matter

 

[FortyJ]

Obviously any use of a previous save to purposefully obtain information pertinent to the current save situation would be in direct violation of the rules.

Also, while Falcon's point concerning discovery of the world map and the locations of the foreign civilizations is valid, there are also other tidbits of information that can be gleamed from the game that might accidentally affect the way we played out the demogame.

Because it would be so difficult to keep this knowledge about the game out of the demogame discussions and polls, I do not believe that we should permit any playing of any save games until the game has completely run its course.

Any non-demogame-specific information that "needs" to be learned from playing a prevous save game could just as easily be learned by playing a totally different game. At this time, I fail to see any valid reason for playing an old save game other than pure enjoyment, which can wait until after the game is finished.

 

[Cyc]

I agree, no playing the saves of the current game.

 

[Grandmaster]

Just to put my two cents in, I'm going to ask a question here (somewhat on-topic) that came up in the chat a while ago. Is it legal to load an old DG2 save game (say, as soon as the Indian invasion began) and edit it with Civ3MultiTool (IE: add in nukes, modern armor, bombers, etc. on our side) for the pure purpose of blowing off steam by leveling India? You wouldn't really learn anything about the game because it's totally unrealistic. But the person who asked in the chat was told not to because it might be illegal, so I just wanted to check.

As to everything else said in the thread, I agree that we shouldn't be allowed to play the save.

 

[Chieftess]

Going to the extreme is a bit different, but performing an action, like going into anarchy to see how many turns it will take is a major exploit at the least. We don't know that knowledge off-hand.

 

[Grandmaster]

That's what I figured. Thanks CT. But I agree with not doing things like checking anarchy or enemy production in old saves.

 

[Cyc]

I would say as long as you didn't press enter that would be ok, GM. . By doing what you were asking about, you could wind up playing right through the current save and revealing unknown items. I know once we start blowing things up, it's hard to stop.

 

[Grandmaster]

Yes it is.... but that's the beauty of playing turn-based games. No matter how many ICBMs you possess, they can all still be used in 1 turn.

 

[FortyJ]

I still believe that any such release of angst or hostility would best be done after the completion of the game. There is no way to know what knowledge you might gleam from editing the save and playing even a single turn.

To be on the safe side, I believe that any such game play should be reserved until after the game is completed.

 

[Chieftess]

@40J - especially since someone with broadband and a fast computer can check the preturn since the "latest save" is the end of the preturn, or later. (and could spy on a civ right before going to war).

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

I think the laws are well and truly clear on this matter. You cannot play a save related to the current demogame, no matter what or when, under any circumstances.

 

[Veera Anlai]

This matter has already undergone Judicial Review. Check the Judiciary Log for details.

 

[Donovan Zoi]

Come back, Bill! Come back!

Even if it just as JA or Public Defender, your judiciary skills are certainly missed.

By the way, I agree with Bill(and everyone, for that matter).