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Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fury Road Modpack' started by davidlallen, Jun 29, 2008.

  1. davidlallen

    davidlallen Deity

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  2. davidlallen

    davidlallen Deity

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    (moved from the dev thread, which is now obsolete)

    I thought about this. The gas truck and also the rebuilt units like tanks appear on their own at random, without using production. For the gas truck, I hope it will be less "micromanagement" for the player. There should usually be one or two gas trucks available, even if production is tied up with buildings or other units. So it should be easier this way.

    For the rebuilt units, it represents the idea that these units are already there, at the depot, they are just ruined. So there is a team of mechanics or engineers at the ruin site, cleaning and fixing the units so they work. They do not require production from the city to work.

    I think it is a different approach than other games have taken; does it seem like it is bad, or more work than using normal production?
     
  3. davidlallen

    davidlallen Deity

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    If anybody plays with python exceptions enabled, using the 3.17 patch, you will see a problem. Whenever the mod attempts to display a message on the screen, a python exception is generated about the argument types to addMessage. This happens, for example, when you use a fuel truck, or a refugee settles, or a few other actions. If you have python exceptions disabled, I am not quite sure if the right thing happens. I think if the exception fires in the middle of a status update, the rest of the status update does not happen.

    So, if you use 3.17 and get funny results, this may be the reason. There is no workaround right now, except to not use 3.17. And as far as I know there is no way to "unpatch".
     
  4. Jabie

    Jabie Wanted in Monte Carlo...

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    Unpatching can be accomplished by having two installs of Civ IV running on your machine, one at 313 and one at 317 :) I haven't had any errors in 317 with version 0.5 so far, but then I'm not running with exceptions on.
     
  5. Refar

    Refar Deity

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    I played a full game and wrote some impressions ides down. It's a lot, so i felt like putting it in a new thread might be a good idea. We can move it back here and remove the thread again if you prefer.
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=280965

    On the 3.17 comment:
    I played on 3.17. For me the Fuel Track worked without any problems and the message got diplayed/logged too. Hoever the AI seem to be completely unable to utilize the fuel track.
    Did you see the AI refuelling units in your game ?
     
  6. davidlallen

    davidlallen Deity

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    Thanks for the tip. It would be fatal if you kept getting popups; but I am more concerned about subtle problems like this. Suppose the following three python commands are intended to be executed:

    perform "a"
    print "b"
    perform "c"

    But the print fails due to this problem. Then I am pretty sure "c" never gets executed. It may not be obvious that something is going wrong, but part of what is "supposed to" happen, doesn't.

    I have a thread out in the sdk/python sub-forum, if it's an easy fix I will re-upload 0.5.
     
  7. davidlallen

    davidlallen Deity

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    Are you sure the AI had refineries?

    There is a keyboard debug command you can use, alt-v, which will print some information. For each player, it prints the number of refineries, fuel trucks, empty gas-powered units, and "other" (non-empty) gas powered units. This can help see what may be the problem.

    I have seen some games where the AI has (a) stacks of fuel trucks (due to no rebuilt depots) and some games where (b) the AI has stacks of empty tanks at depots (due to no refineries). I have also seen games where (c) fueled tanks are used against me.

    If (a,b) happen too often and (c) happens too rarely, then I will try to tweak the AI somehow. But, I would need to know whether to tweak (a) or (b).
     
  8. Refar

    Refar Deity

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    Yep it had refines - i seen multiple stacks - usually sitting on a depot - a couple of empty tanks and some fuel trucks. So it seems to know to send the trucks to the empty stack. It but it somehow missed the actual refuelling.

    Did not seen a single moving AI tank in the game :(

    Seen same thing in a city with Jeeps - Like 5 empty jeeps and half a dozen fuel trucks... Yet no refuelling
     
  9. Refar

    Refar Deity

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    Can you give detail instructions on how to use the console stuff ? IIRC there was something needed to be changed in the ini to make the console awaiable in the first place. Once i know how to use it i can load up some of my saves and generate the needed statistics for you.
     
  10. davidlallen

    davidlallen Deity

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    That is annoying. I wish the game had a slightly better testing mechanism, so I could set up a bunch of runs and then actually measure the result. I will investigate to see what is wrong.
     
  11. davidlallen

    davidlallen Deity

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    You don't need to do anything special to use the alt-v key. It will print to the screen. If you want to use the console to autoplay, you can do this.

    1. edit your civilizationiv.ini file in my games/BTS. Where it says "CheatCode = 0" replace the "0" with "chipotle".
    2. start a game
    3. On American keyboards, use the "~" key to toggle display of the console.
    4. You can use "CyGame().setAIAutoPlay(300)" to run 300 turns. Sadly you cannot play it after that, because the first thing the game does is kill all your cities and units.

    If I misunderstood what you were looking for, please re-ask.
     
  12. davidlallen

    davidlallen Deity

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    Well, there is a bug, but not the one I thought. As Refar pointed out most of the print statements do come out correctly with 3.17. The bug is in my own code. For a couple of print statements, I was passing a player object into the print routine, instead of passing the integer index of that player. So these particular prints did not work before the patch either. This only affects the debug alt-c and alt-v print statements.

    In case anybody wants to use the alt-c and alt-v statements, you will need to change two lines of python. In file CvFuryRoadEvents.py, find the two lines which call "self.gc.getActivePlayer()" and change to "self.gc.getActivePlayer().getID()".

    My observation that the play might be subtly wrong is unfounded. So that cannot explain Refar's note that the AI gas units never got refueled. I will investigate more.
     
  13. Refar

    Refar Deity

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    Here are those fuel statistics from one of my saves:

    She has unfuelled units and some fuel in one place, but does not use them. Also from another info print-out i stumbled upon - those fuel trucks seem to have "City Defender" AI assigned.

    Another oddity was - after just loading up the save, the satistics said 0 to everything - after skiping 1 turn it went back to normal - i guess it is updated on the turn change. Not a big deal - unless it's somehow part of the no refueling problem ;)



    Attached the save (3.17 !!!) if you need it.

    Also attached the Python file with the fixed prints, if someone wants it. Just unpack into "Fury Road\Assets\Python" over the old file.
     
  14. davidlallen

    davidlallen Deity

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    Overnight I ran a huge map 300 turns. Several of the AIs wound up with what Refar saw: stacks of unfueled units on depots, and stacks of gas trucks on refineries. This must not be working. That is indeed a major bug. I will work to fix it tonight.

    The way python modders override the AI is to take the opportunity to force a move; it doesn't matter what UNITAI is assigned. The fuel trucks have a default AI, but my python will override it whenever it sees an opportunity. For some reason it is not seeing the opportunity, that's all.

    There is another minor bug regarding reloading of games, which you have noticed and I have fixed in 0.6. There is a global data structure of information about the gas powered units, which gets initialized when the game starts. Loading a game does not count as starting a game, so the bug is the structure does not get initialized when you load. Fortunately I have a check at the end of every turn, which initializes the structure if it seems uninitialized. So, when you load a game, some things are missing until you end the first turn.
     
  15. davidlallen

    davidlallen Deity

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    I have fixed the bug where the AIs were failing to refuel units. I misunderstood the way python handles referring to objects in one source file from another source file. It's a change I made either in 0.4 or 0.5. If you unzip the attachment into Mods\Fury Road\Assets\Python, overwriting the two files there, then it will work correctly.

    I'm not going to update or re-release 0.5. I will probably release 0.6 Friday or Monday.
     
  16. countjackula

    countjackula Chieftain

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    Thank you for the great mod. As both a Mad Max and Fallout series fan I enjoyed playing your mod very much. Thanks to those who helped with model re-skinning as well. It adds a lot of flavor.

    Comments/feedback:
    - works fine with patch 3.17. I was glad for that being as I had just updated from 3.13 recently.

    - two headed cows (brahma) were a cool nod to Fallout that made me smile. Pure win.

    - some basic instructions on which folder to install the mod into would be helpful for some of us. I figured it out easily enough, but a quick sentence of instruction would've been handy.

    - consider putting a limit on the amount of tanker trucks that any player can have in play at one time, like there is a limit to how many missionaries you can have in play at any one time. Perhaps 12? /shrug I'm not sure what a "perfect" number would be. I destroyed many of my own tanker trucks as soon as they popped. Eventually I opened up the world builder to modify my cities by taking out 5 of the 7 refineries I built to cut back on the amount of tanker trucks I needed to keep destroying (I was trying to keep my unit expenses down). Likewise, I conquered many enemy cities to find perhaps only 1 or 2 units guarding the city and 4-8 tanker trucks idling inside. I am positive one of the AIs basically killed themselves by destroying their economy trying to maintain massive fleets of tanker trucks it wasn't using.

    - it is incredibly difficult to keep a city happy. I'm used to playing most of my cities in a 5x5 square block so they have room to work their fat cross. With this mod a 3x3 square would have been sufficient for most of my cities. I only grew one city to pop.13 but most of them were at 9. With the lack of :) resources, limited :) buildings, and no culture slider it is hard to keep a city larger than 9-10 happy. Perhaps this is intentional?

    - I've enjoyed the last three Civ4s, but this is the first Civ4 mod I've played. It takes considerably longer for enemy turns to finish than I'm used to. Is this typical of all mods?

    - Would you consider different play speeds? I normally play epic or marathon, but felt like playing a fast standard game. Because this mod takes place in the modern/post modern era there is no difference. Some speed option like a 6 month turn, a 1 year turn, a 2 year turn, and a 5 year turn would help for a faster game for those who prefer to not play a marathon length session. I ended up staying up all night to finish instead :)

    By my games end, half the continent couldn't be settled due to radiation from additional nuke launches. These humans just don't learn do they? Cities also seem to have extra maintenance penalties so I disbanded everything I conquered. I had my hands full trying to not go broke just maintaining my original seven cities. That left a lot of room for the barbarians to breed. I had a vast wasteland to my east which provided some very easy xp for my units. Fun and eventually challenging to keep the hordes at bay, but it felt like I was using an exploit to create super soldiers to send after the other AIs. It's hard for barbarian choppers and UTEs to stand up to SAMs and tanks. The marauders managed to punch through only a couple of times.

    I never did complete future tech, and when I finally won by conquest my science slider was down at 20% just so I could support my attack army and vast border police. This will be a good mod for me to practice setting up specialist cities to keep the science and money flowing. Normally, I'm a builder and win by culture. This mod shook up my regular play patterns, and I had fun doing so. Thanks for the great entertainment. I look forward to playing it some more, and seeing future changes as well (like barbed wire fences and the SAM model switched for the twin uzi gunner!)

    I've lurked here reading often enough, but this is my first post. Take that as a compliment to your mod. I had to let you know I thought it was great, and appreciate everyone's effort involved in making it.
     
  17. davidlallen

    davidlallen Deity

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    Hey, great. It's good to get positive feedback.

    Part of this is due to a bug where the AI is not using fuel trucks right, see this post for a fix. For your own units, it is interesting that you were destroying trucks to keep support costs down. I will see if I can exempt fuel trucks from the support quota. I don't want players to run out of fuel trucks, maybe reducing the speed at which they get produced will help this.

    I am more of a combat guy, and I don't usually get cities bigger than 7-8. Probably I switch over to combat stacks too early, and my economy flatlines just before I win. The smaller pop size due to food is definitely intentional. For buildings, I would love suggestions about what to add; Jabie has made a few earlier in the thread.

    For the culture slider, I have added that in version 0.6. If you like, you can make a one line XML change in version 0.5 to enable it. (The first Fury Road modmod?) Open notepad on file Fury Road\Assets\XML\Technologies\CIV4TechInfos.xml. Search for TECH_CIVIC_PROJECTS. Under that search for CommerceFlexible. You will find this line:

    <CommerceFlexible/>

    Replace that line with these lines:

    <CommerceFlexible>
    <bFlexible>0</bFlexible>
    <bFlexible>0</bFlexible>
    <bFlexible>1</bFlexible>
    </CommerceFlexible>

    You can make the indentation match if you want. But fortunately in XML, the indentation does not matter.

    It depends on the mod, and the game situation. Part of the slower runtime may be due to big stacks of fuel trucks or tanks which the AI keeps trying and failing to use. That part I can fix by better unit limits, as you have suggested. Part of it is due to the various actual features of the game. Part of it may be due to using python instead of C++ for the features. I did an experiment on this before and turning off all the python only made the game 8% faster. I should redo this experiment with the new python; maybe some of the calls I am using are slow.

    Interesting suggestion. I have not played vanilla civ on other speed settings very much. I actually find I can win Fury Road faster than I can win regular civ on the same map size, so my feeling is Fury Road is "less marathon" than vanilla. I can easily make the faster speeds, but I have a feeling each one would need to be play-balanced separately, and I am not sure how much time to invest in that. I'll put it on the list, but maybe lower than some other things.

    In version 0.6 most of the silo production will be guided missiles instead, no fallout.

    I think vast barb wastelands, where you can go explore and level up, fits the theme. To avoid making this exploit too strong, I kept the barb XP cap. You can only get as high as 10 XP by killing barbs and animals. I think, but I am not sure, that you get less XP if you win by overkill; so your tanks and SAMs shouldn't have been getting that much from killing barb marauders. Did you find that you were able to get above, say level 2 on those units? I could *lower* the barb XP cap, if it seems too powerful.

    Stay tuned! More units, new models, more gameplay coming soon!
     
  18. davidlallen

    davidlallen Deity

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    Does this post give exactly the information you needed? Then I will include a link to that in the next release announcement.
     
  19. Refar

    Refar Deity

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    Some points on quantity of Fuel trucks:

    You are right - it wouldn't be much fun to run out of fuel all of the time. But fuel still must be "valuable" - the optimal situation (in terms of interesting gameplay) is when the player is allways on the verge of a fuel shortage - he allways have some, but its never over-abundant. So he might be forced too choose - spending the fuel on a offensive action or better securing more supply first, moving out a attack stack now or maybe a bit later...

    Some shortage on fuel will also promote the use of fuel preserviong promotions and fuel-free units - be it Infantry or those UTE

    Right now the player can fight fuel shortage rather easily, by just building more refineries.

    My feeling is, it might be better, to make Oil wells (those things you actually build on a ressource) produce the trucks, rather than cities. By this you would accomplish:

    * Some "quantitative" property to Oil ressource - the more you have, the more wells you can build the more fuel you will have.

    * Terrain improvements are more easily lost in war or due to barb activity than city buildings. So there would be a chance that the enemy can cut your fuel supply in a war. Right now he would need to pillage all your oil to do that, but with quntitative Oil, every single Well counts - the enemy pillaged one of your 3 oil fields - its 33% less fuel for your war effort.
     
  20. davidlallen

    davidlallen Deity

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    That is a cool idea. It is easy to implement. I will try it out.
     

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