Please help me beat Monarch convincingly

[vogonpoet]

I randomly got Russia, with Peter (Phi, Exp), so I start off with Hunting and Mining.

The settings:

Spoiler Preamble :

I can beat Monarch. But with cannons, and eventually maybe artillery :slow:.

Things I really need to improve: a) Diplomacy, b) the Art of War, c) initial scouting then playing the map. Also d) setting strategic goals, e) optimising tech path to achieve said goals, f) trait utilization, g) everything else .

So I will try to play a couple of slow games here on Monarch, with the aim of then moving up to Emperor.

Settler: So of course my Scout starts off in what feels like the wrong place. I am really bad at reading starts, but it looks like a pretty straight forward SIP? Scout to the marble to make sure I am not killing any seafood with SIP?

Tech: Agriculture seems likely to be a non-controversial tech choice, but it can wait 5 (?) turns. After that, I guess I should wait and see? Looks like BW early will be necessary if I want to build a mine.

Builds: Worker obviously.

Thoughts: Exp means my hammers get a 1.25 bonus on workers right? And I should whip them when I need them, so my food gets the bonus too. Whereas Phi means I can generate lots of GP points, and 4pop-whip universities. Will worry about that a bit later.

 

[Seraiel]

You could settle 1 SE at the River, land-locked capitals are much stronger than those that are coastal, unless they got seafood. Therefore I'd move the Scout 1S 1SE.

You get a bonus on your Worker only through , you got that right, so working the Plains-Hill while producing the Worker is the right choice because it gives you an extra .

PHI is far stronger btw., it allows you to 2-3 pop Universities, and faster GPs are a big thing. You can create a GS for an Academy while creating another one for bulbing Education and if you're slow in tech because you only got little , you can even double bulb Education.

 

[Gumbolt]

See what the scout reveals? You could move him to where you plan to settle or just move him 2SW to reveal marble area. Seems to be lots of forest to the south.

Moving settler SW could mean a city near the marble later to share some of the food? Seems to be a lot of hills near your capital which could make for a nice settler/worker pump.

 

[vogonpoet]

Thanks for popping by guys.

Landlocking my cap sounds like a pretty good idea with no sea food, so yeah, moved my scout. Not very exciting results, looks like I might pick up a naked green hill to mine before BW?

I will go ahead and settle the site marked. Quite a lot of brown tiles in my vicinity

 

[Seraiel]

Wow, that land really sucks, so many Plains. At least you have some Grasslands in the NE and SW, let's also hope that there are Gems on the Green Hill in the East, or at least Copper or something.

Settling 1 SE is still the right call imho, because Watertiles aren't better either. I believe that you'll have enough good tiles until Cuirassiers or similar. And lol at the blue circle, yes, settle the wet Corn to get 1* Crabs, ofc.. ^^

 

[vogonpoet]

To Turn 05:

I settled, and saw my green hill, so that was nice. And a lonely tundra deer, ooh, quick, build a settler. /sarcasm

Then my Scout checked out the coast, because I still want sea food, and now my Scout has a sad . Our immediate vicinity is dry tundra and desert. Given their horrible lack of production, DesertHillFish and MarbleSouth look like pretty sad helper cities rather than anything I want to settle immediately. Still, multiple cities sharing food tiles mean I guess I can at least screw up the whipping micro more than usual.



Hopefully the green hills in the SE have some nice food.

Plans: Tech Agri, improve wet then dry corns, decide next tech once more info available. Given the huge number of food options, I guess AH or Fishing?

Edit: continuing until Agri in, couldn't resist a bit of exploration.

To Turn 10

The Capital is continuing to work the 3 hammer tile like a boss.
The Scout, well the scout is beginning to suffer. He saw the clam, hoped for something, anything, to make the south coast look interesting, but nothing. No contact, no land based resources, not even like, any bloody vegetation.



He will cross back NW over the desert to check out the Sheep site that became visible with the Cap border pop. Will the northern tundra prove more interesting than the southern desert? I guess it can't be much worse.

Help please: Ok, seriously, what to tech next? I always tech too many basic techs, I need to avoid stuff to get important things sooner, I know that, but what am I doing?

This map feels like a mirror image of Australia so far - how big can the desert be? No contact yet, but can't blame the AI for not wanting to brave the wrath of Shai-Hulud.

1. AH: Hope to find horses, and of course, get ability to pasture sheep in my only remotely interesting second sites. Will not help much with production, unless I uncover those mythical much coveted desert horse (camel) tiles.
2. BW: No real trees to chop; but no green, or even brown hills outside the cap either; some food for whipping though, so feels pretty urgent, production-wise
3. TW: Kinda useless, but opens pottery, and there is not much commerce so far. OTOH, just 3 riverside grasslands.
4. Fishing: Yum, but slow, and really, both clam and fish sites are horrible. Leads to Sailing (am I on an island? Does the GLH make sense in potential isolation when you don't have any bloody coastal sites worth settling? - I could chop the desert perhaps :headdesk:. No, seriously, maybe TundraDearSheep will become a world renowned site of trade and commerce, if it has a few more forests, resources, and you know, actual green tiles.

Going AH-BW-Writing, even without fishing, sounds pretty slow. But I am tempted by AH anyway (its just selected as place holder, not made any moves yet this turn)

 

[SpK]

I might go BW before AH, so you can chop, get that settler out quicker.
Also, before too long cut north with your scout so you can see if anything worthwhile is east of the deer/sheep, maybe go north now and worm your way along or follow that coast if it looks better than desert, at least you likely have oil ;-)

 

[Chase_2_Rabbits]

Not an easy map. Bugger all commerce, I'd be farming the wine as soon as the corns are up. I'd probably go BW next. I'm likely to be chopping out the Oracle, depending on what I find in the time it takes BW to come in.

Fractal map, so we could be isolated. Too early to say for definite yet. If we are isolated, then this is going to be a very tough task. If you build the GLH, it won't pay dividends until you get to Astro; although to be honest, this is a very low commerce start. Even those 2 extra domestic trade routes will help. Problem is that you don't have a coastal cap, and nowhere else has the potential to build it! I think it's off the table with a landlocked capital.

If we go Oracle and then Aesthetics on the marble-based Lib path then we don't have anyone to Cuir stomp if isolated. We also can't use CoL and/or Aest to backfill missing techs if there's no one to trade with, which is probably the hardest part about being isolated.

This isn't going to be a convincing win. You'll take until the modern era to catch up in tech, and you might never catch up if there's a runaway AI, making a space win very difficult. Inter-continental conquest with no likely tech edge is going to be attritional. You've got marble. Culture victory? I'm likely rolling another map if I don't find some better land or a potential trading partner by the time BW comes in...

 

[elitetroops]

Hmm... interesting thoughts about landlockong capital. My first thought when I saw the starting screenshot was SIP. We see tundra, which suggests probably not much commerce around and we see an offshore island. With that in mind I'd settle coastal and start planning for the GLH. But the current capital location is also decent.

Looks like a tough start, hopefully you can find some neighbors.

 

[sampsa]

Having played a lot of fractal, I'd say more than 50% chance to be isolated here, because the shoreline starts to curve up north. You still haven't found a good 2nd city spot, so you better check that deer+sheep site. I wouldn't go early BW here, no reason to start using forests as there is no fantastic city spot to rush into.

 

[vogonpoet]

Ha, lets not worry about the thread title now, the way I see it, this is by no means the best start ever, so even if I have to try and scrape together a sad cultural victory in the AD 2300s or something, its still pretty good. Challenging starts can make for good learning experiences IMO. (When I first saw I had gotten a Phi leader, I was all like, oooh fantastic, I know how to leverage those - settle food, maybe stone for Mids, caste, bulbs, etc. My dreams are simpler now.)

I wouldn't go early BW here, no reason to start using forests as there is no fantastic city spot to rush into.

Yeah, if I could see an awesome location worth rushing towards, and some time pressure from a close AI, I would go BW directly. As it is, I am not sure.

I should check the timings when I get home, but my worker has plenty to do right now without BW - 3 turns still to build, 13 turns move and improve the corns, 7 turns to move and farm a plains wine tile (sounds kinda desperate ), 5 turns to move and mine my naked hill.

That is 28 turns before he gets bored. But if I am going to delay BW it should be until when?

What is the best BW alternative? Fishing, and hope I find forests and sea food north of the sheep? AH, and hope I find forests and sea food north of the sheep?

At least if I go AH and find nothing exciting in the north I can happily settle Marble South as possibly the lamest second city I have ever settled in my long but sporadic Civ career.

 

[vogonpoet]

Turn 24

Ok, this map is beginning to feel a bit sadistic .



Looks like I am indeed on a deserted desert island. Woo.


Tech:

In the end, I went BW: 1) If I am isolated, I am going to need to self tech it sooner rather than later for chops and whips, whatever happens and 2) MarbleSouth just isn't by itself attractive enough to justify planting my first settler there. Now that I have explored more, it turns out I just have sheep and more sheep, so looks like I will now be teching AH anyway :-/.

I guess i have two options now:

1) Go AH==>Fishing==>Sailing, chop and whip GLH in my horrible coastal city spot (no sea food, yay).
2) Go AH==>TH==>Pottery==>Writing, cottage up two floodplain/sheep cities, forget about GLH.

Worker Plan:



Luckily my worker turn counting efforts were horrible in my previous post, and the worker has just finished farming the second corn when BW came in. Should I really farm one/both plains wine tiles? I think I must:



Switching from the plains forest to the wine already helps me shave a turn off my next tech, without delaying the warrior, so if I am going to work it sometimes, I may as well get one more measly food out of it.

Thus, I plan to farm both, then aim to chop a riverside hill forest into a settler, so that my first mine will be next to the river. The farms will take 10 turns, So AH will be in, and I can go settle some horses.

Dotmap:

I really wanted two overlaping FloodplainSheep cities, but then I thought, what about the GLH, and getting off this god-forskaen island? There has to be better land somewhere else. A coastal spot seems reasonable then, with orange dot offering food and forests for whpping and chopping the GLH. No production afterwards though.

But, if I settle orange dot, splitting the floodplains into two cities becomes very awkward indeed, leaving me with forest-wasting yellow dot.

Of course, both cities need border pops to pick up their sheep, so maybe that is a crap plan. But where is my GLH if not next to deer? Where is my commerce if not in the GLH?

24 short turns and I already feeling like I am struggling. On the plus side, no copper, so Monarchy warriors can be a thing


Edit:

Actually, looking again, maybe I should just plant a city at MarbleSouth and steal some forest from the cap to build GLH there instead???
Whilst teching to writing before sailing to bulb math before my chops are due? That would be at least leveraging my Phil trait

 

[sampsa]

If I understood correctly, the techs you have now are hunting, agri, mining, BW. I'm pretty sure whipping the first settler (size 6) is the best play now. Work max food for now, put hammers into warriors (and at least 10 into settler), farm wine (it's better than mining a hill, as you should be whipping some settlers). If you want to chop, put them into settlers/workers, but I'd save capital forests for later use when you have bonuses (bureau, forge, org rel).

Location of 2nd city is interesting. The best area available is floodplains in the east. Maybe 1E of yellow to grab sheep to 1st ring at the cost of one floodplain (but doesn't waste a grass and saves a forest)? Another city would go 1E of hill sheep and deer-city moved 1N or 1NW. This way, you'd get 6 decent cities. Marble city is very marginal, but obv can borrow corn from cap and grow cottages.

I don't think you should go for GLH at the cost of expansion, so AH-TW-pot-writing seems like the best tech path. I'd advice against bulbing math.

 

[Seraiel]

You don't need the Marble / Sheep city, you'll get Marble with the 2nd Borderpop of the capital in T50 or before. Better found that Fish / Sheep / overlap city and try to get GLH in that one, you can take the shared Forests from the capital for it.

Apart from that, that map looks really ugly. It'd already be bad, if you were only isolated, and started near the Tundra, but having a Desert south of the Tundra that has that size, is ridiculous.

Also, making 2 cities out of the FPs isn't needed, 3 FPs are 1 , nothing to care about.

Now just find that tripple Gems / Gold spot in the east...

 

[sampsa]

Sera, but where should the 2nd city go? I suppose you are suggesting deer, because everywhere else food is on the 2nd ring (except crappy clam).

Such maps are much more interesting for me than good starts.

 

[Seraiel]

I'd settle the first city at the Floodplains and the 2nd one at Fish / Sheep. It'll get the Sheep with the 2nd Borderpop of the capital, and the Floodplains-spot is his best commercial-spot 'til now, and Cottages need long to mature. I'd farm one of the FPs to get the city going.

Deer spot will make a good secondary GP-Farm where he can create a GS, because the Sheep / Fish site will be GM-polluted.

 

[sampsa]

And you seriously don't like settling fp-city 1E of the suggested spot? Loses 1 long term, sure, but spares a forest and is much faster to set up due to sheep on 1st ring.

 

[Seraiel]

In terms of tiles, 1E or where the mark is, is only a minor difference. The marked spot is a little better though, and as Plains-Sheep are not really better than a farmed FP, I'd take the slightly better spot. The trade of 1E to marked is 1 more Grassland and instant Sheep against 1 more FP. That's such a little difference, that it imho really doesn't matter.

 

[vogonpoet]

Ok, some debate, that's good.

To confirm, I do indeed have Hunting, Agr, Mining and BW.

Seraiel, I don't really understand how I would build the GLH in DesertFishSheep - pasturing the sheep gives me food but no hammers, the fish need a border pop from somewhere, my city centre gives me a hammer, and there are some flat plains tiles and just three forests in the BFC, which even if I tech to Math in time, represent less than half the 200H needed for the GLH. So I would need to whip library/monument, Fishing boat, Exploring boat, Lighthouse, then start overflowing whips (galleys and workers? Don't even have enough tiles worth improving) into the GLH. Sounds like it would take approximately forever.

I am now a bit torn about the floodplain city(-y+ies). Moving it nearer the most westerly sheep, as sampsa suggests:



Pros: 1. Can work sheep straight off. 2. Allows another city to be squeezed in next to the other sheep, the sampsa dotmap predicts being able to work the 3 grass land tiles marked (VoU-approved option), which would otherwise be wasted (and lets face it, 3 grass tiles are a pretty significant proportion of my grasshere).
Cons: 1. One less food. 2. Moving the Deer city north west means it just has two food sources, making it unimpressive as a secondary GP farm.

I am thinking the pros outweigh the cons.

The current plan:
1. Revolt into Slavery straight away.
2. Farm my wine
3. Head down the AH-TW-Pot-Writing path, and consider fishing-sailing after that.
4. Grow cap, pump warriors, spawnbust the floodplains, then the way to the floodplains, then the desert :-/.
5. Find a city site with food and commerce with my lion-haunted scout.

 

[Seraiel]

@ vogonpoet:

This game is Monarch, it doesn't matter if you need forever for GLH .

OF-whips are definitely the way, and the city got very good Food after the Borderpop which you get yourself by whipping a Monument + a WB and letting the OF go into the GLH like you described, and you can also whip the GLH.