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Plot Culture Mechanics

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Kaitzilla, Jun 24, 2018.

  1. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    I want a thread that talks about border wars!
    Can you conquer another AI capital by settling close to one with the 1st Settler, using a +2:culture: per turn Cultural Trait civ, and founding a religion?
    Maybe :crazyeye:

    New players always have a tough time with the hidden game mechanic of plot culture, so let's discuss it.

    First, a guide to help explain what is going on, a truly excellent and masterful work by DerangedDuck back in 2007. :D
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/culture-mechanics-disassembled.225927/

    A guide for 1.61 Vanilla Civ before the expansions. :hmm:
    Need to test if everything is still the same in Beyond the Sword 3.19!

    Yes, everyone is familiar with City Culture, keep going. :popcorn:

    Plot Culture, yes that's a good name for it. :thumbsup:
    That unseen value that decides if the human gets the tile or the AI does.

    So according to this guide, a new city gets 2 Plot Culture on the city and 1 Plot Culture in the surrounding 8 tiles.
    The only data we are given about Plot Culture is % values where borders overlap, but it should be enough information to test with.


    Looks good so far.
    Cities are founded with 2 Plot Culture on the city tile and 1 Plot Culture in the surrounding 8 tiles.

    If the City gets razed, and a new one gets founded, can we get a new +2 plot culture on the city tile and +1 Plot Culture on the surrounding 8 tiles?
    Nope!

    Spoiler :



    If a city is founded on a tile that has 1 plot culture from a previous city founding, then the new city will have 2 plot culture on the city tile, not 3.
    The surrounding tiles will have 1 plot culture and the city ruin tile will have 2.

    Next question.
    Will a city that produces +0:culture: per turn generate more Plot Culture?
    No, it will not.

    Spoiler :








    We now how enough baseline data to do more complex tests.
    From the guide:
    Let's test what happens to Plot Culture once the city start generating +1:culture: per turn.
    Spoiler :





    How weird!
    The city producing +1:culture: per turn produces +2 Plot Culture per turn on all 9 tiles!
    A possible explanation provided by Cusanus:
    If I'm reading that right, then any city that produces +1:culture: per turn will produce +2 Plot Culture per turn on all tiles.
    A city producing +2:culture: per turn will produce +3 Plot Culture per turn on all tiles.
    Etc. etc.

    Time to test a city that produces +2:culture: per turn then.
    Spoiler :





    Yes, cities that produce +2:culture: per turn do indeed produce +3 Plot Culture per turn on all tiles.
    So any time a city produces culture, there is a free +1 Plot Culture per turn more than expected.

    Next question.
    If a city produces +0.1:culture: per turn, does it get the bonus +1 Plot Culture per turn?
    Yup!
    Spoiler :


    Next question.
    If 2 cities with +1:culture: per turn share the same tile, does it get +4 Plot Culture per turn, or +3 Plot Culture per turn?
    The answer is surprisingly +4.
    Both cities generating +1:culture: per turn add +2 Plot Culture to the same tile each.

    Spoiler :

    Next question.
    When a city pops its borders, does it really get +20 Plot Culture per turn in the inner ring?
    Yup!

    Spoiler :
    AI's New Sarai has not popped borders


    Player capital just popped borders getting to 10 city :culture:



    AI's Samarkand has not popped borders

     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2019
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  2. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    Will test more tomorrow.
    Reserved...
     
  3. lindsay40k

    lindsay40k Chieftain

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    I’ve cultured London with Paris when playing on Earth 18 Civs, pretty sure I did it even when it was England’s only city. Have a recollection of thinking ‘huh, even a capital isn’t safe’.
     
  4. dutchfire

    dutchfire Moderator Moderator

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    I think there was a succession game at some point where they won conquest without ever building a military unit, culture flipping all AI cities. Can't find it now though.
     
  5. ArchGhost

    ArchGhost Chieftain

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    Thanks for the discussion Kaitzilla.

    I be learning today. Knew about the hidden +20 for popping borders, but never about a free +1 on all plots if the city produces culture at all. This explains a few things about early Stonehenge and CRE AIs (who are putting out +2 and +3 culture per plot in their outermost rings respectively, instead of +1 and +2). I always thought CRE was stronger in border wars than what +2 would appear to be.

    I know you aren't done, and these may be answered coming up, but some questions for clarity:

    1.) The inner ring bonus (not the city center) is (city culture + 1) x 20, not a flat +20?

    2.) Is the inner ring bonus cumulative? I had heard somewhere that if you pop borders twice, you get another +20 in your first ring for instance (+40 total then), your second ring starts getting +20 as it's just inside the outer border, while outer border only gets city culture per turn (and I guess all plots get the hidden +1)

    3.) Regardless of the culture in the rings, if I understand this correctly, the city square only ever gets 1 (hidden) + 20 (hidden) + city culture output, ever, if it pops its borders. Is this to say that the city center is relatively easier to flip than like, the innermost ring, assuming the enemy culture can reach the center?

    Rephrased: If the per ring boni do stack, none of them increment the city center which only ever stays at +20 for popping its border at all?
     
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  6. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    Sorry for the long delay Archghost.

    1) The inner ring bonus and the city center square (all 9 of them) get a flat City culture + 1 + 20 when the city culture is between 10:culture: and 100:culture:
    With +2:culture: per turn, going from 8:culture: to 10:culture: and popping borders activates the +20 plot culture bonus.
    Between 100:culture: and 500:culture:, the center 9 squares get a bonus +40 plot culture per turn :D
    500:culture: to 5000:culture: it is +60 plot culture bonus.
    5000:culture: to 50000:culture: it is +80 plot culture bonus.
    greater than 50000:culture: it is +100 plot culture bonus.

    2) Yes, the bonus is cumulative.
    You have described it perfectly. :goodjob:
    Each border pop stage adds +20 plot culture per turn to all the squares that the city used to have in the previous border situation.

    With no border pops (0:culture: up to 9:culture: in the city), and the city generating city culture, the plot culture increase each turn is:
    [City Culture +1][City Culture +1][City Culture +1]
    [City Culture +1][City Culture +1][City Culture +1]
    [City Culture +1][City Culture +1][City Culture +1]

    With 1 border pop (10:culture: up to 99:culture: in the city), and the city generating city culture, the plot culture increase each turn is:
    [////////////////////////][City Culture +1////////][City Culture +1///////][City Culture +1///////][////////////////////////]
    [City Culture +1][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1]
    [City Culture +1][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1]
    [City Culture +1][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1]
    [////////////////////////][City Culture +1////////][City Culture +1///////][City Culture +1///////][////////////////////////]

    With 2 border pops, (100:culture: up to 499:culture: in the city), and the city generating city culture, the plot culture increase each turn is:
    [////////////////////////][////////////////////////////////][City Culture +1////////][City Culture +1///////][City Culture +1///////][///////////////////////////////][////////////////////////]
    [////////////////////////][City Culture +1////////][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1///////][////////////////////////]
    [City Culture +1][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1 +40][City Culture +1 +40][City Culture +1 +40][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1]
    [City Culture +1][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1 +40][City Culture +1 +40][City Culture +1 +40][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1]
    [City Culture +1][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1 +40][City Culture +1 +40][City Culture +1 +40][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1]
    [////////////////////////][City Culture +1////////][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1///////][////////////////////////]
    [////////////////////////][////////////////////////////////][City Culture +1////////][City Culture +1///////][City Culture +1///////][////////////////////////////////][////////////////////////]

    3) The enemy city square won't flip the player control when it reaches 50% player control like a regular tile.
    It will start to experience revolts and will flip on the 2nd revolt if the AI does not have a strong enough garrison.

    For AI city squares, assume they have the same plot culture as the surrounding 8 squares + 1 more plot culture.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2019
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  7. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    After playing around for months, it turns out there IS a way to directly view Plot Culture. :eek:
    Thanks again @DanF5771!

    Just turn on DeBugging Mode as outlined by Jdog5000 10 years ago.
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/bts-in-game-debug-mode.279903/
    First, enable cheating in Civ 4 by typing in Chipotle in the .ini file.
    Save the changes before exiting.
    Make sure to change the .ini file in the Beyond the Sword folder, or you will just enable cheating for vanilla civ. :lol:
    Spoiler :




    Next, fire up a regular game of civ that can use World Builder.

    Once in the game, press Control + W to open up World Builder.
    Click on the Player Mode Buildings Tab in the top left and select "City" in the top left corner.
    Put a city on the map with left click.
    Right click the city to instantly destroy it if needed.

    Once a city is down, enter debugging mode by pressing Control+Z.
    This can only be done with CheatCode = Chipotle activated. :)
    Check out all the info the AI city has in debugging mode.
    Spoiler :
    Hover the mouse pointer


    Holding down Shift


    Holding down Control


    Holding down Alt


    Holding down Alt + Shift at the same time

    Now for the main event.
    Hold down Shift on a non-city tile to view the plot culture on that tile :)



    Time for testing!
    How much plot culture does a Great Artist's Great Work (culture bomb) produce in BTS Patch 3.19?

    A city with 0:culture: bombs a Great Artist, goes straight to 4000:culture: city culture, and pops borders 3 times.
    The plot culture added is:
    [//////////][//////////][//////////][+0018][+0018][+0018][///////////][///////////][//////////]
    [//////////][+0018][+0018][+0380][+0380][+0380][+0018][+0018][//////////]
    [//////////][+0018][+0380][+0780][+0780][+0780][+0380][+0018][//////////]
    [+0018][+0380][+0780][+1180][+1180][+1180][+0780][+0380][+0018]
    [+0018][+0380][+0780][+1180][+1180][+1180][+0780][+0380][+0018]
    [+0018][+0380][+0780][+1180][+1180][+1180][+0780][+0380][+0018]
    [//////////][+0018][+0380][+0780][+0780][+0780][+0380][+0018][//////////]
    [//////////][+0018][+0018][+0380][+0380][+0380][+0018][+0018][//////////]
    [//////////][//////////][//////////][+0018][+0018][+0018][///////////][///////////][//////////]

    The Plot Culture added is the same if the city starts with 10:culture:.

    Oddly, if the city starts with 100:culture:, then there is an extra +20 Plot culture on all tiles in the first 3 rings. :hmm:
    [//////////][//////////][//////////][+0018][+0018][+0018][///////////][///////////][//////////]
    [//////////][+0018][+0018][+0400][+0400][+0400][+0018][+0018][//////////]
    [//////////][+0018][+0400][+0800][+0800][+0800][+0400][+0018][//////////]
    [+0018][+0400][+0800][+1200][+1200][+1200][+0800][+0400][+0018]
    [+0018][+0400][+0800][+1200][+1200][+1200][+0800][+0400][+0018]
    [+0018][+0400][+0800][+1200][+1200][+1200][+0800][+0400][+0018]
    [//////////][+0018][+0400][+0800][+0800][+0800][+0400][+0018][//////////]
    [//////////][+0018][+0018][+0400][+0400][+0400][+0018][+0018][//////////]
    [//////////][///////////][//////////][+0018][+0018][+0018][///////////][//////////][//////////]

    What about running the culture slider at 100% and building culture in a city?
    Does it add lots of extra plot culture like in Civ Vanilla?

    It makes no difference in BTS 3.19. :sad:

    Do culture bombs help flip AI cities?
    Not directly.
    At best, 380 plot culture can be added onto the tile of an AI city 3 tiles away.

    If that AI city popped borders even 1 time while producing +1:culture: per turn, it starts producing +22 Plot Culture per turn in the inner 9 squares and 18 turns later a culture bomb would make the AI city tile about 50% player / 50% AI controlled.

    It is the 3 border pops and good +:culture: per turn that really puts pressure on an AI city 3 tiles away.
    The player city would be adding at least +21 Plot Culture per turn onto the AI city tile, so it might be possible to overwhelm an AI city that has less than 100 city culture:culture:

    What happens to Plot Culture when a city is gifted away?
    The city tile and 8 tiles around the city all go to 0 plot culture. :eek:
    Any plot culture beyond the center 9 tiles remains.
    If the Player gets the city back, the plot culture in the center 9 tiles does not return.


    Don't forget to set CheatCode = 0 after finishing playing around with debugging mode. :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
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  8. ArchGhost

    ArchGhost Chieftain

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    Thanks for the clarifications, the effort you've put in, and all the great info @Kaitzilla!
     
  9. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    There has been some question regarding how much plot culture a spy can add to a city tile using the spread culture :culture: espionage mission.
    Let's find out!

    **Fires up a test game, turns on debugger with chipotle and control+z, makes two test cities, spread culture 10 times, and.....

    The spread :culture: espionage mission adds 0 player plot culture to an AI city! :eek:
    It only adds player city culture to the AI city.

    In this test, the AI had 100:culture: in his city and the player had 0:culture: (Plot culture was 43 for AI and 1 for player, so 97% Byzantium and 2% English)
    After 5 spread culture missions, the AI had 100:culture: in his city and the player had 25:culture:
    Plot culture remained unchanged at 43/1 : 97%/2%





    Also, in case it was lost in the 'too long didn't read', a city only gets the hidden bonus +1 plot culture each turn if it generates positive city culture. (Even +0.1:culture: for a turn activates the +1 plot culture bonus)

    So a city producing +0:culture: per turn will generate +0 plot culture per turn on the squares in its borders
    This is true even if a city previously popped borders using the culture slider for 1 turn.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
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  10. OldDude

    OldDude Chieftain

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    I love this thread. It almost ALWAYS happens, no matter who my border neighbors are, that in mid to late game I am losing tiles to the AI. I've always wanted to be able to see what the heck the AI was doing in that city to steal tiles from me, even though my city losing tiles is culture-strong. When that happens, the tile-stealing city usually ends up being first in my target list and when I take that city there are usually no special culture producing buildings. So it's always been a big mystery wrapped up in an enigma to me.

    I'm going to study this some more and do the debugging thing to see if I can find the answer to the big question...how?

    Thanks for the great thread!
     
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  11. Anysense

    Anysense Chieftain

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    That would be because all culture/military buildings are razed upon taking a city. Except WW, they just loose their culture bonus. Thus, if you want to know what culture generating building were there you need espionage.
     
  12. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    If you had 75% culture in the city or so, I think that there was a chance for culture buildings to not get razed? Or have I gotten that mixed up?

    Also, when the AI gift you a city, (just by being friendly, or in a peacetreaty) you keep all culture buildings.

    @OldDude You can worldbuilder in a couple of great spies and use them to gain a massive amount of espionage points on a target, then you can inspect their cities.
    Sort of a "debug mode" for us who don't know how to debug. :)
     
  13. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Chieftain

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    Not sure of the exact percentage, but there is a point past which the city is considered yours even if you didn't originally settle it, and a city that's considered yours won't go into revolt if you (re-)take it militarily. IIRC it also won't lose any buildings, in that case.
     
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  14. OldDude

    OldDude Chieftain

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    I knew buildings got razed but I guess I figured the city should be full of culture producing Wonders and many times they are not. I'll try @krikav's idea about the spies. I just want to know to see if it can be reasonably countered. Thanks.
     
  15. OldDude

    OldDude Chieftain

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    @krikav, thanks for the tip. I'll try that next time!
     
  16. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    The only thing you can be somewhat safe about, is what you have in your first ring.
    You get absolutely insane bonuses for the rings inside your outermost one. The outermost ring gets whatever your city screen says, but inside that you get some high bonuses.
    So if you try to culture-battle, you can do well by accerating quickly to a borderpop (perhaps with artists) and then just coasting with whatever the city gives you.

    Culture bomb is really nice if a city is at 1000 culture, and you get raised up to 5000 culture for that borderpop by the artist.
     
  17. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Chieftain

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    And when not using "debug more" you could always try to zoom in to see what buildings a city has.
     
  18. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Oh, and @Kaitzilla thanks alot for putting this thread together! Uncovering mysteries of civ4!
     
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  19. OldDude

    OldDude Chieftain

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    Agreed, thanks @Kaitzilla !

    So, I did the Great Spy trick in a game where I was losing tiles (quickly) on two borders with two different AIs. In both cases, they had build upwards of 10-12 temples and monasteries, along with the usual culture producing buildings like theatre, etc. So it seems in order to combat this, you need to build those buildings in your border cities as well. Since I've joined this board, I've learned that you build as few buildings as possible to get away with so that hammers go into your army instead, which is what I've tried to do. This game is full of trade offs but what I still have problems understanding is how these AIs can build all those buildings and still have a strong army. And I'm only playing at Prince level!
     
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  20. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Time is also of the essence. If you get you library/theatre up 20 turns earlier, you get alot of turns to get a headstart and really marking those tiles as yours.
    It's downright impossible to come very late to the party and try to overcome plot culture in territory that an AI has occupied for 100 turns.

    And yes, so many tradeoffs! And the AI does get alot of bonuses... It's just the fact that we as humans can prioritize that make us even stand a remote chance.
     

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