Plot Culture Mechanics

[Kaitzilla]

I want a thread that talks about border wars!
Can you conquer another AI capital by settling close to one with the 1st Settler, using a +2 per turn Cultural Trait civ, and founding a religion?
Maybe

New players always have a tough time with the hidden game mechanic of plot culture, so let's discuss it.

First, a guide to help explain what is going on, a truly excellent and masterful work by DerangedDuck back in 2007.
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/culture-mechanics-disassembled.225927/

(Please note that all information given here is in regards to Vanilla Civ 1.61. It is probably unchanged in Warlords and the as yet unpublished Beyond the Sword expansion, but I have no way of being certain.)
(Also note that the following information will generally refer to normal speed games, unless otherwise noted. For games played on the Epic, Marathon, or Quick settings, some numbers listed below may be scaled somewhat.)

There are several different values associated with culture in Civilization 4.
First of all, there is the 'City Culture'. City culture actually affects only one thing: the city's cultural level and thus cultural radius. The city's cultural level and cultural radius start at '1'. When city culture reaches 10, the cultural level goes up to '2'. At 100, it goes up to '3', at 500 it reaches '4', at 5000, it reaches '5', and finally at 50,000 city culture it jumps up to '6', called "Legendary culture". Get 3 cities of level 6 and you win a cultural victory. Also note that a city actually has a cultural value and cultural radius for every player in the game. However, unless a player has actually owned a city at some point, their culture for that city is zero. If they are not the current owner of the city, their city culture will have zero impact on the game. City culture never goes away unless the city is destroyed, or the civilization to whom the culture belongs is destroyed.

Of course you were probably already familiar with 'City culture'. If not, you may need to actually go out and buy a copy of Civ 4 and play the game...

A guide for 1.61 Vanilla Civ before the expansions.
Need to test if everything is still the same in Beyond the Sword 3.19!

Yes, everyone is familiar with City Culture, keep going.

There is also a less accessible culture value, which I will call the 'plot culture'. Every square/tile/plot/whatever in the game also has a cultural value for every single player. You can't ever see the exact value, but it's not totally invisible. On the city screen, the relative values of 'plot culture' for various players are shown in the city screen if you point the mouse at the 'nationality' bar. If you point the mouse cursor at a square near a city, the %nationality of the plot owner(but nobody else) is shown.
The main effect of plot culture is to determine whose civilization controls that particular plot of land. A civilization will own a plot, if at least one of its cities has that plot within its cultural radius, and if their plot culture is greater than any other civilization that has that plot within one of their cities' radii. Note that they have to actually own the city. If they built some culture in a city, but later lost control of that city, that city won't allow them to control any of the surrounding tiles. However, the culture that the city spilled onto the surrounding tiles might allow another of their cities to control those tiles. The exception to all this is plots containing cities. The city and the plot underneath will remain under the control of whoever founded or last conquered it, regardless of underlying culture. However, if the calculated cultural owner is different from the city owner (in other words, some other city, belonging to a different player has the plot within its cultural radius, and they have more culture on that plot), there is a chance of the city revolting and changing sides. We'll go into revolts in more detail later. Finally, note that plot culture can never ever be gotten rid of, except in a couple of circumstances. Firstly, if you give away a city, you lose all plot cultire in the city square and surrounding 8 squares. Secondly, if you completely obliterate a civilization, their plot culture goes away. Still, if a civilization owns no cities in an area, their culture won't have any effect except to alter the displayed nationality of squares in the region and to cause a small amount of unhappiness in cities who "long to join the motherland".

You are probably wondering now where all these cultural values are coming from. The city culture is pretty easy, since the city screen clearly shows what all the sources of culture are. All the various temples, libraries, specialists, culture from the cultural slider, and culture from production are added up and then multiplied by the bonuses given by cathedrals, wonders, civics, and so on. This value, sometimes called CPT(Culture Per Turn), is added to the city's culture each and every turn. If this gives the city enough culture to increase it's cultural level and radius, these will also be increased.
The city's CPT is also added to the plot culture of every plot within the city's cultural radius, regardless of ownership or presence or absence of other cities. However, there's an added factor based on the city's cultural radius. If the distance between the plot and the city is less than the cultural radius, then 20 times the difference is added to the plot culture as well. Note that the square that the city is on counts as being 1 space away and that this 20 value is not scaled with regards to game mode. It is always 20 per turn, period.
To make sure that that's clear, let me describe it another way. Think of the city's potential cultural area as a series of rings. The first ring consists of the city and the 8 surrounding squares. The second ring contains the other 12 squares of the city's production area, and so on. When the city's cultural level is 1, only the first ring gets the points from the city's CPT. When the city's cultural level reaches 2, both first and second ring get the base CPT and the first ring also gets and additional 20 points a turn, even if the city isn't generating any culture at that time. When the city reaches it's third cultural expansion, The inner 9 squares get an extra 40 points, the next ring gets 20 points and so on. At the highest level of culture, the inner ring gets a whopping 100 extra points of plot culture per turn.
When you found a city, you also get some plot culture to allow you to control the surrounding area, specifically 2 points on the city square and 1 point in the surrounding 8 squares. This is why newly founded cities are so easy to culturally overwhelm. All you need is a few turns of an obelisk and you've got a majority of culture in your neighbor's city...

Plot Culture, yes that's a good name for it.
That unseen value that decides if the human gets the tile or the AI does.

So according to this guide, a new city gets 2 Plot Culture on the city and 1 Plot Culture in the surrounding 8 tiles.
The only data we are given about Plot Culture is % values where borders overlap, but it should be enough information to test with.


Looks good so far.
Cities are founded with 2 Plot Culture on the city tile and 1 Plot Culture in the surrounding 8 tiles.

If the City gets razed, and a new one gets founded, can we get a new +2 plot culture on the city tile and +1 Plot Culture on the surrounding 8 tiles?
Nope!

Spoiler :

If a city is founded on a tile that has 1 plot culture from a previous city founding, then the new city will have 2 plot culture on the city tile, not 3.
The surrounding tiles will have 1 plot culture and the city ruin tile will have 2.

Next question.
Will a city that produces +0 per turn generate more Plot Culture?
No, it will not.

Spoiler :

We now how enough baseline data to do more complex tests.
From the guide:

The city's CPT is also added to the plot culture of every plot within the city's cultural radius, regardless of ownership or presence or absence of other cities. However, there's an added factor based on the city's cultural radius. If the distance between the plot and the city is less than the cultural radius, then 20 times the difference is added to the plot culture as well. Note that the square that the city is on counts as being 1 space away and that this 20 value is not scaled with regards to game mode. It is always 20 per turn, period.

Let's test what happens to Plot Culture once the city start generating +1 per turn.

Spoiler :

How weird!
The city producing +1 per turn produces +2 Plot Culture per turn on all 9 tiles!
A possible explanation provided by Cusanus:

QUOTE="Cusanus, post: 10406826, member: 172533"]This was a great thread that taught me alot, so I thought I'd just raise it from the dead to disassemble some more.

Let me first quote the two most messages (or parts of messages) that I'm referring to - I'm adding spoilers so that this post doesn't look so horrible.





I just had a little world builder session to test these explanations.
And here comes my huge refinement of Remy's diagrams:


# = city site (probably receiving CPT + 1, not tested yet)
c = tile receiving base CPT + 1
2 = tile receiving base CPT + 21
4 = tile receiving base CPT + 41
6 = tile receiving base CPT + 61
8 = tile receiving base CPT + 81
0 = tile receiving base CPT + 101


A basic city starts like this.

Level 1 Culture: 1-9 points

ccc
c#c
ccc

Level 2 Culture: 10-99 points

 ccc
c222c
c2#2c
c222c
 ccc

Spoiler for the higher culture levels.

Spoiler :

Level 3 Culture: 100-499 points

  ccc
 c222c
c24442c
c24#42c
c24442c
 c222c
  ccc

Level 4 Culture: 500-4999 points
(Note the diagonal looks especially odd & 'jagged' at this level and higher)

   ccc
 cc222cc
 c24442c
c2466642c
c246#642c
c2466642c
 c24442c
 cc222cc
   ccc

Level 5 Culture: 5000-49,999 points

    ccc
  cc222cc
 c2244422c
 c2466642c
c246888642c
c2468#8642c
c246888642c
 c2466642c
 c2244422c
  cc222cc
    ccc

Level 6 'Legendary' Culture: 50,000+ points

     ccc
   cc222cc
  c2244422c
 c244666442c
 c246888642c
c24680008642c
c24680#08642c
c24680008642c
 c246888642c
 c244666442c
  c2244422c
   cc222cc
     ccc

Yep, the hole difference is 1 CPT.
But it's a secret CPT - all tiles within your cities' cultural radii receive it at the beginning of each turn, for free!

Spoiler with a few pictures from my world builder session that gave this result.

Spoiler :

Orleans and York were both founded on turn 0 and received a monument, York also got a library, a jewish temple and the jewish religion. The contested tile (which's culture is shown in the bottom left corner of each screenshot) is the plain 1E of Orleans.
On turn 0, it receives 1 french culture because the city is founded. The monument doesn't give any culture yet, because it didn't exist when the turn started.

Turn 1, the french tile culture is 3 - 1 from the founding of the city, one from the monument, and the 1 secret CPT. (You can't see this yet because the tiles is not yet contested - there is no English culture yet -, but you will believe me in a few turns.)

Turn 2
View attachment 287745
The French tile culture is 5, the English tile culture is 6, resulting in English control of the tile at 45-54% culture (the game always brings these percentages down to a round number).

View attachment 287746
7-11 -> 36-63%
View attachment 287747
9-18 -> 33-66%
View attachment 287752

Well, if you're interested, do the rest of the math for yourself...
(If you really do, remember: from turn 25 on, all buildings are 1000 years old, so they give twice their usual CPT.)

Small BUG mod side note:

Spoiler :

"Your population:2 plus growth: 1 (75%), will exceed the domination limit: 3 (75%)" - That is, of course, a misscalculation. My population + growth would be 75% of the world's population only if the overall global population didn't change despite my population growth. But it does, so my 2+1 citizens only make up 3/5 = 60% of the world's population. No domination for me...

View attachment 287748
View attachment 287749
View attachment 287750
View attachment 287751

Open questions:
(Find the answer to any of these and you might become as famous and popular as me, the discoverer of the secret tile CPT! )

Does the city tile receive only the culture that the city actually produces, or does it get the same amount as the adjacent tiles (CPT+1 for non-expanded borders)?
(I suspect the latter.)

Does the city tile of a newly founded city really get +2 culture, as claimed by DerangedDuck, or only +1?
(I suspect the latter.)

Do tiles within the cultural radius of more than one city receive more than one secret CPT?
(I suspect they do.)

If I'm reading that right, then any city that produces +1 per turn will produce +2 Plot Culture per turn on all tiles.
A city producing +2 per turn will produce +3 Plot Culture per turn on all tiles.
Etc. etc.

Time to test a city that produces +2 per turn then.

Spoiler :

Yes, cities that produce +2 per turn do indeed produce +3 Plot Culture per turn on all tiles.
So any time a city produces culture, there is a free +1 Plot Culture per turn more than expected.

Next question.
If a city produces +0.1 per turn, does it get the bonus +1 Plot Culture per turn?
Yup!

Spoiler :

Next question.
If 2 cities with +1 per turn share the same tile, does it get +4 Plot Culture per turn, or +3 Plot Culture per turn?
The answer is surprisingly +4.
Both cities generating +1 per turn add +2 Plot Culture to the same tile each.

Spoiler :

Next question.
When a city pops its borders, does it really get +20 Plot Culture per turn in the inner ring?
Yup!

Spoiler :

AI's New Sarai has not popped borders


Player capital just popped borders getting to 10 city


AI's Samarkand has not popped borders

 

[Kaitzilla]

Will test more tomorrow.
Reserved...

 

[lindsay40k]

I’ve cultured London with Paris when playing on Earth 18 Civs, pretty sure I did it even when it was England’s only city. Have a recollection of thinking ‘huh, even a capital isn’t safe’.

 

[dutchfire]

I think there was a succession game at some point where they won conquest without ever building a military unit, culture flipping all AI cities. Can't find it now though.

 

[ArchGhost]

Thanks for the discussion Kaitzilla.

A city producing +2 per turn will produce +3 Plot Culture per turn on all tiles.

So any time a city produces culture, there is a free +1 Plot Culture per turn more than expected.

I be learning today. Knew about the hidden +20 for popping borders, but never about a free +1 on all plots if the city produces culture at all. This explains a few things about early Stonehenge and CRE AIs (who are putting out +2 and +3 culture per plot in their outermost rings respectively, instead of +1 and +2). I always thought CRE was stronger in border wars than what +2 would appear to be.

I know you aren't done, and these may be answered coming up, but some questions for clarity:

1.) The inner ring bonus (not the city center) is (city culture + 1) x 20, not a flat +20?

2.) Is the inner ring bonus cumulative? I had heard somewhere that if you pop borders twice, you get another +20 in your first ring for instance (+40 total then), your second ring starts getting +20 as it's just inside the outer border, while outer border only gets city culture per turn (and I guess all plots get the hidden +1)

3.) Regardless of the culture in the rings, if I understand this correctly, the city square only ever gets 1 (hidden) + 20 (hidden) + city culture output, ever, if it pops its borders. Is this to say that the city center is relatively easier to flip than like, the innermost ring, assuming the enemy culture can reach the center?

Rephrased: If the per ring boni do stack, none of them increment the city center which only ever stays at +20 for popping its border at all?

 

[Kaitzilla]

Thanks for the discussion Kaitzilla.



I be learning today. Knew about the hidden +20 for popping borders, but never about a free +1 on all plots if the city produces culture at all. This explains a few things about early Stonehenge and CRE AIs (who are putting out +2 and +3 culture per plot in their outermost rings respectively, instead of +1 and +2). I always thought CRE was stronger in border wars than what +2 would appear to be.

I know you aren't done, and these may be answered coming up, but some questions for clarity:

1.) The inner ring bonus (not the city center) is (city culture + 1) x 20, not a flat +20?

2.) Is the inner ring bonus cumulative? I had heard somewhere that if you pop borders twice, you get another +20 in your first ring for instance (+40 total then), your second ring starts getting +20 as it's just inside the outer border, while outer border only gets city culture per turn (and I guess all plots get the hidden +1)

3.) Regardless of the culture in the rings, if I understand this correctly, the city square only ever gets 1 (hidden) + 20 (hidden) + city culture output, ever, if it pops its borders. Is this to say that the city center is relatively easier to flip than like, the innermost ring, assuming the enemy culture can reach the center?

Rephrased: If the per ring boni do stack, none of them increment the city center which only ever stays at +20 for popping its border at all?

Sorry for the long delay Archghost.

1) The inner ring bonus and the city center square (all 9 of them) get a flat City culture + 1 + 20 when the city culture is between 10 and 100
With +2 per turn, going from 8 to 10 and popping borders activates the +20 plot culture bonus.
Between 100 and 500, the center 9 squares get a bonus +40 plot culture per turn
500 to 5000 it is +60 plot culture bonus.
5000 to 50000 it is +80 plot culture bonus.
greater than 50000 it is +100 plot culture bonus.

2) Yes, the bonus is cumulative.
You have described it perfectly.
Each border pop stage adds +20 plot culture per turn to all the squares that the city used to have in the previous border situation.

With no border pops (0 up to 9 in the city), and the city generating city culture, the plot culture increase each turn is:
[City Culture +1][City Culture +1][City Culture +1]
[City Culture +1][City Culture +1][City Culture +1]
[City Culture +1][City Culture +1][City Culture +1]

With 1 border pop (10 up to 99 in the city), and the city generating city culture, the plot culture increase each turn is:
[////////////////////////][City Culture +1////////][City Culture +1///////][City Culture +1///////][////////////////////////]
[City Culture +1][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1]
[City Culture +1][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1]
[City Culture +1][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1]
[////////////////////////][City Culture +1////////][City Culture +1///////][City Culture +1///////][////////////////////////]

With 2 border pops, (100 up to 499 in the city), and the city generating city culture, the plot culture increase each turn is:
[////////////////////////][////////////////////////////////][City Culture +1////////][City Culture +1///////][City Culture +1///////][///////////////////////////////][////////////////////////]
[////////////////////////][City Culture +1////////][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1///////][////////////////////////]
[City Culture +1][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1 +40][City Culture +1 +40][City Culture +1 +40][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1]
[City Culture +1][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1 +40][City Culture +1 +40][City Culture +1 +40][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1]
[City Culture +1][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1 +40][City Culture +1 +40][City Culture +1 +40][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1]
[////////////////////////][City Culture +1////////][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1 +20][City Culture +1///////][////////////////////////]
[////////////////////////][////////////////////////////////][City Culture +1////////][City Culture +1///////][City Culture +1///////][////////////////////////////////][////////////////////////]

3) The enemy city square won't flip the player control when it reaches 50% player control like a regular tile.
It will start to experience revolts and will flip on the 2nd revolt if the AI does not have a strong enough garrison.

For AI city squares, assume they have the same plot culture as the surrounding 8 squares + 1 more plot culture.

 

[Kaitzilla]

After playing around for months, it turns out there IS a way to directly view Plot Culture.
Thanks again @DanF5771!

Just turn on DeBugging Mode as outlined by Jdog5000 10 years ago.
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/bts-in-game-debug-mode.279903/

Debug mode is kind of fun and extremely useful for figuring out why the AI has made the choices it has. Many of these comments work without BTS and this mod, but this mod has several customizations to make seeing certain things easier.

WARNING: Debug mode exposes the entire map, all cities and units (including spies). You may not want to do this on a game you intend to keep playing ...

1. With civ closed, open \My Games\BTS\CivilizationIV.ini and on the line CheatCode enter chipotle.

2. Start up civ and load/start a game. You can enter/exit debug mode at any time once the cheat code is entered, doesn't effect saves or anything like that.

Method 1:

3. Press Ctrl-Z to flip between debug mode and normal civ. (thanks Nor Me for the tip)

Method 2: (Python console instructions left for use running automation)

3. Press SHIFT+~ to open the in game Python console. This is a very useful tool for forcing things to happen in game to test them.

4. Type CyGame().toggleDebugMode() into the Python console. This turns debug mode on or off. The game will take a little while to expose the whole map.

5. Press SHIFT+~ to close the Python console.

In debug mode you can get all kinds of internal information on the state of the AI from the map. All civs in the game will show up in the scoreboard and you can see what they're researching. You can enter any city to see what it's doing as well as see every unit and what AI they're running.

In addition, as you move your mouse over the screen you can get extra info by holding down various combinations of CTRL, SHIFT, and ALT. Some particular highlights (some of which are specific to this mod):

• ALT over owned territory - Strategies the owner is using, their area AI plus info on all wars they are in and what war plan they are using.
• ALT over land - Values for city founding in that plot for all relevant players plus info on the number of sites an AI has selected in the area. If the plot is one of the selected ones for an AI then a yellow X appears next to the player.
• CTRL over city - Closeness calculations for city and sum for player/team. Info on num of defenders the AI has/needs.
• CTRL or SHIFT over unit - Mission and AI the unit is using or stats on the unit.
• SHIFT and ALT near city - Whether the plot is being worked by the city, values the city assigns to working the plot, plus info on how important various resources are to different AIs.
• SHIFT over empty owned territory - Values the AI assigns to various civics.
• ALT over names in scoreboard to show war plans, power values
• CTRL over names in scoreboard to show break down of score (like what you get mousing over your own name)

There are other bits of info as well, play around with various combinations. If you are curious what a particular value means for the AI you can search in CvGameTextMgr.cpp ... most label strings like "Closeness" or whatever are not loaded from XML so you can search for what you see to located the relevant selection in the code.

In addition, BBAI has added some colored circles to the map in Debug mode to help understand what the AI is up to. Right after starting Debug mode you have to click on a different unit or city to get the circles to show up the first time. The locations the AI has picked out for future city sites are shown in circles of the AI's color, although when these circles coincide only one color is shown. Tiles where the AI wants to place a new or different improvement are circled in red.

Finally, this mod includes AIAutoPlay and using it you can have the AI play for you to fully simulate the game. This can be run independently of debug mode, when not in debug mode you'll see only what one player sees. Open the Python console and enter CyGame().setAIAutoPlay(10) to simulate 10 turns.

EDIT: There's also a pretty good writeup about the in game debugging setup from Iustus as well with pictures, though some of the specific information shown doesn't apply to the current BTS AI setup.

EDIT2: An AI logging system has also been added to the mod, read more about how to get logs and how to interpret them below.

First, enable cheating in Civ 4 by typing in Chipotle in the .ini file.
Save the changes before exiting.
Make sure to change the .ini file in the Beyond the Sword folder, or you will just enable cheating for vanilla civ.

Spoiler :

Next, fire up a regular game of civ that can use World Builder.

Once in the game, press Control + W to open up World Builder.
Click on the Player Mode Buildings Tab in the top left and select "City" in the top left corner.
Put a city on the map with left click.
Right click the city to instantly destroy it if needed.

Once a city is down, enter debugging mode by pressing Control+Z.
This can only be done with CheatCode = Chipotle activated.
Check out all the info the AI city has in debugging mode.

Spoiler :

Hover the mouse pointer


Holding down Shift


Holding down Control


Holding down Alt


Holding down Alt + Shift at the same time

Now for the main event.
Hold down Shift on a non-city tile to view the plot culture on that tile



Time for testing!
How much plot culture does a Great Artist's Great Work (culture bomb) produce in BTS Patch 3.19?

A city with 0 bombs a Great Artist, goes straight to 4000 city culture, and pops borders 3 times.
The plot culture added is:
[//////////][//////////][//////////][+0018][+0018][+0018][///////////][///////////][//////////]
[//////////][+0018][+0018][+0380][+0380][+0380][+0018][+0018][//////////]
[//////////][+0018][+0380][+0780][+0780][+0780][+0380][+0018][//////////]
[+0018][+0380][+0780][+1180][+1180][+1180][+0780][+0380][+0018]
[+0018][+0380][+0780][+1180][+1180][+1180][+0780][+0380][+0018]
[+0018][+0380][+0780][+1180][+1180][+1180][+0780][+0380][+0018]
[//////////][+0018][+0380][+0780][+0780][+0780][+0380][+0018][//////////]
[//////////][+0018][+0018][+0380][+0380][+0380][+0018][+0018][//////////]
[//////////][//////////][//////////][+0018][+0018][+0018][///////////][///////////][//////////]

The Plot Culture added is the same if the city starts with 10.

Oddly, if the city starts with 100, then there is an extra +20 Plot culture on all tiles in the first 3 rings.
[//////////][//////////][//////////][+0018][+0018][+0018][///////////][///////////][//////////]
[//////////][+0018][+0018][+0400][+0400][+0400][+0018][+0018][//////////]
[//////////][+0018][+0400][+0800][+0800][+0800][+0400][+0018][//////////]
[+0018][+0400][+0800][+1200][+1200][+1200][+0800][+0400][+0018]
[+0018][+0400][+0800][+1200][+1200][+1200][+0800][+0400][+0018]
[+0018][+0400][+0800][+1200][+1200][+1200][+0800][+0400][+0018]
[//////////][+0018][+0400][+0800][+0800][+0800][+0400][+0018][//////////]
[//////////][+0018][+0018][+0400][+0400][+0400][+0018][+0018][//////////]
[//////////][///////////][//////////][+0018][+0018][+0018][///////////][//////////][//////////]

What about running the culture slider at 100% and building culture in a city?
Does it add lots of extra plot culture like in Civ Vanilla?
It makes no difference in BTS 3.19.

Do culture bombs help flip AI cities?
Not directly.
At best, 380 plot culture can be added onto the tile of an AI city 3 tiles away.

If that AI city popped borders even 1 time while producing +1 per turn, it starts producing +22 Plot Culture per turn in the inner 9 squares and 18 turns later a culture bomb would make the AI city tile about 50% player / 50% AI controlled.

It is the 3 border pops and good + per turn that really puts pressure on an AI city 3 tiles away.
The player city would be adding at least +21 Plot Culture per turn onto the AI city tile, so it might be possible to overwhelm an AI city that has less than 100 city culture

What happens to Plot Culture when a city is gifted away?
The city tile and 8 tiles around the city all go to 0 plot culture.
Any plot culture beyond the center 9 tiles remains.
If the Player gets the city back, the plot culture in the center 9 tiles does not return.


Don't forget to set CheatCode = 0 after finishing playing around with debugging mode.

 

[ArchGhost]

Thanks for the clarifications, the effort you've put in, and all the great info @Kaitzilla!

 

[Kaitzilla]

There has been some question regarding how much plot culture a spy can add to a city tile using the spread culture espionage mission.
Let's find out!

**Fires up a test game, turns on debugger with chipotle and control+z, makes two test cities, spread culture 10 times, and.....

The spread espionage mission adds 0 player plot culture to an AI city!
It only adds player city culture to the AI city.

In this test, the AI had 100 in his city and the player had 0 (Plot culture was 43 for AI and 1 for player, so 97% Byzantium and 2% English)
After 5 spread culture missions, the AI had 100 in his city and the player had 25
Plot culture remained unchanged at 43/1 : 97%/2%





Also, in case it was lost in the 'too long didn't read', a city only gets the hidden bonus +1 plot culture each turn if it generates positive city culture. (Even +0.1 for a turn activates the +1 plot culture bonus)

So a city producing +0 per turn will generate +0 plot culture per turn on the squares in its borders
This is true even if a city previously popped borders using the culture slider for 1 turn.

 

[OldDude]

I love this thread. It almost ALWAYS happens, no matter who my border neighbors are, that in mid to late game I am losing tiles to the AI. I've always wanted to be able to see what the heck the AI was doing in that city to steal tiles from me, even though my city losing tiles is culture-strong. When that happens, the tile-stealing city usually ends up being first in my target list and when I take that city there are usually no special culture producing buildings. So it's always been a big mystery wrapped up in an enigma to me.

I'm going to study this some more and do the debugging thing to see if I can find the answer to the big question...how?

Thanks for the great thread!

 

[Anysense]

when I take that city there are usually no special culture producing buildings.

That would be because all culture/military buildings are razed upon taking a city. Except WW, they just loose their culture bonus. Thus, if you want to know what culture generating building were there you need espionage.

 

[krikav]

If you had 75% culture in the city or so, I think that there was a chance for culture buildings to not get razed? Or have I gotten that mixed up?

Also, when the AI gift you a city, (just by being friendly, or in a peacetreaty) you keep all culture buildings.

@OldDude You can worldbuilder in a couple of great spies and use them to gain a massive amount of espionage points on a target, then you can inspect their cities.
Sort of a "debug mode" for us who don't know how to debug.

 

[AcaMetis]

Not sure of the exact percentage, but there is a point past which the city is considered yours even if you didn't originally settle it, and a city that's considered yours won't go into revolt if you (re-)take it militarily. IIRC it also won't lose any buildings, in that case.

 

[OldDude]

That would be because all culture/military buildings are razed upon taking a city. Except WW, they just loose their culture bonus. Thus, if you want to know what culture generating building were there you need espionage.

I knew buildings got razed but I guess I figured the city should be full of culture producing Wonders and many times they are not. I'll try @krikav's idea about the spies. I just want to know to see if it can be reasonably countered. Thanks.

 

[OldDude]

If you had 75% culture in the city or so, I think that there was a chance for culture buildings to not get razed? Or have I gotten that mixed up?

Also, when the AI gift you a city, (just by being friendly, or in a peacetreaty) you keep all culture buildings.

@OldDude You can worldbuilder in a couple of great spies and use them to gain a massive amount of espionage points on a target, then you can inspect their cities.
Sort of a "debug mode" for us who don't know how to debug.

@krikav, thanks for the tip. I'll try that next time!

 

[krikav]

The only thing you can be somewhat safe about, is what you have in your first ring.
You get absolutely insane bonuses for the rings inside your outermost one. The outermost ring gets whatever your city screen says, but inside that you get some high bonuses.
So if you try to culture-battle, you can do well by accerating quickly to a borderpop (perhaps with artists) and then just coasting with whatever the city gives you.

Culture bomb is really nice if a city is at 1000 culture, and you get raised up to 5000 culture for that borderpop by the artist.

 

[AcaMetis]

And when not using "debug more" you could always try to zoom in to see what buildings a city has.

 

[krikav]

Oh, and @Kaitzilla thanks alot for putting this thread together! Uncovering mysteries of civ4!

 

[OldDude]

Oh, and @Kaitzilla thanks alot for putting this thread together! Uncovering mysteries of civ4!

Agreed, thanks @Kaitzilla !

So, I did the Great Spy trick in a game where I was losing tiles (quickly) on two borders with two different AIs. In both cases, they had build upwards of 10-12 temples and monasteries, along with the usual culture producing buildings like theatre, etc. So it seems in order to combat this, you need to build those buildings in your border cities as well. Since I've joined this board, I've learned that you build as few buildings as possible to get away with so that hammers go into your army instead, which is what I've tried to do. This game is full of trade offs but what I still have problems understanding is how these AIs can build all those buildings and still have a strong army. And I'm only playing at Prince level!

 

[krikav]

Time is also of the essence. If you get you library/theatre up 20 turns earlier, you get alot of turns to get a headstart and really marking those tiles as yours.
It's downright impossible to come very late to the party and try to overcome plot culture in territory that an AI has occupied for 100 turns.

And yes, so many tradeoffs! And the AI does get alot of bonuses... It's just the fact that we as humans can prioritize that make us even stand a remote chance.