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Poland as 1 of 10 new Civilizations added in BTS?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by MusX, Apr 1, 2007.

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  1. Barton

    Barton Chieftain

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    Traitorfish you legend!!! Let's join forces and make a winge thread for these people!
     
  2. Panda

    Panda Metal head

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    More like 'wannabe-Germans' :lol:

    If there was no 'Russian' civ, I wouldn't mind a 'Slavic' civilization, but it makes no sense to me to have both 'Russians' and 'Slavs' in the game.
     
  3. Pokurcz

    Pokurcz Emperor

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    Bullseye! Not to forget that the Slavs are the most numerous people of Europe, and most of them have a negative stance towards Russia.


    And by the way.... :hammer: Poland has had a large impact on European history (and therefor of the world) effectively stopping German expansion in to the east in 1410 and as the bulwark of Christianity towards the east, fending of the Ottomans, Tatars and such, and not the least miraculously fending of the Bolsheviks in 1920, who would have over run most of war weary Europe in no time.

    The problem is rather with Poland's Image and PR, because these situations have had a low attention factor because they stopped something that would have made an enormous change of over all history, but never happened. These where historical key
    situations, undeservingly omitted by Western historians.

    This is why many Poles feel Poland deserves more attention from the "West", and the lack of Poland in CIV is one more reminder of the lack of it.
     
  4. Barton

    Barton Chieftain

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    Bolsheviks, they had been screwed to the wall by the russian civil war, a slight breeze could have knocked them over. The red army was a joke at that time. If I had a release the toxic gas in the idiots face button, at this time it would be you.
     
  5. Pokurcz

    Pokurcz Emperor

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    For your information the Battle at the Wisla in 1920 was widely considered amongst military historians as one of the twenty (if not ten) greatest battles in recorded history, before the second world war that is, you impolite ignoramus.

    Edit to add:
    The Soviets had 950,000 combatants with 5,000,000 reserves, if thats your idea of a joke.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-Soviet_War
     
  6. dutchking

    dutchking Deity

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    Hehehe, I like this guy :goodjob: . That's a very good take on the "issue/argument".
     
  7. dutchking

    dutchking Deity

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    Yayyyyyy! :p Take that Poles! :lol:
    :joke:
     
  8. Barton

    Barton Chieftain

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    Wikipedia, what an awesome source, hasn't been wrong entirely before or anything. Sure, I could right now make you be a gayrights activist and nobody would relise how false the statement was until informed 3 weeks later.

    *claps rather unconvincingly*
    I applaude you mere internet person. Now remember that like during the first world war there was a gun per 2 or 3 people. Also Poland does deserve a position in a later game, but there are more pressing matters so I'll continue with my. Haha, Poland is a hole that shouldn't be in and its creating caused the Second World War.
     
  9. dutchking

    dutchking Deity

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    Are you joking...hehehe...if you aren't I think you're damn crazy though...:lol:
     
  10. Barton

    Barton Chieftain

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    Yeah, I'm just sick of their winging about civs like Poland over and over again, in fact let us lighten the mood with a yay for the dutch thread and an up beat dance tune.
     
  11. Pokurcz

    Pokurcz Emperor

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    Hes crazy alright, with the loss of his ego, one can practically hear the hiss of it evaporating as he goes for "comic bookstore guy" (Simpsons) grade sarcasm with such beauties as "*claps rather unconvincingly*" and "I applaude you mere internet person.", and then rushes of for "Now remember that like during the first world war there was a gun per 2 or 3 people.", which he probably has mixed with the landing of soviets in Stalingrad in the movie "Enemy at the gates".

    My eyes are watering with pity...
     
  12. Barton

    Barton Chieftain

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    I don't watch movies, most of them these days are just generic poormans struggle to help his family or misportraying of history for real profits.

    Loss of ego, *looks back through his own messages looking for this*. No really remember, the Russian/Soviet Army was very weak at the time, anyhow the war is a very confusing topic which flips between was it Poland or the Russians who were the aggresors and due to the fact that Poland took Vilnius in 1920 I think I have to take the Soviet opinion on this one and say Poland was nothing more than a bully of those who looked weak and the Soviet did shut them up. Poland did get what was coming to them in 1939, they weren't exactly the poor innocent little country people seem to say they are today. Now, take note: I'm awesome, your not. Also really remember, during charges on the eastern front during the Second World War allot of Russian charged with Pitchforks and not bayonettes, but thats not important because it's not spelled out in capatilised bold in wikipedia. Now just crawl back into your corner, and just think about Poland, the nation that was royaly rooted for its arogants.
     
  13. dutchking

    dutchking Deity

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    Whatever, the bottom line is Poland won't be a civ in this expansion.
     
  14. Barton

    Barton Chieftain

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    here, here

    Now everyone to the Upbeat dance tune and celebrate the dutch.

    Actualy lets change that upbeat dance tune to and play Money for nothing on my new Turner
     
  15. Pangur Bán

    Pangur Bán Deconstructed

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    Talk of Austria being a separate civilisation in any historical context is a historical joke, only producable by people with little or no knowledge of history. Shall we renamed Civ 4 - "Post-19th century Sovereign States"? At least Poland is a historical nation, with a historically distincitive identity and culture (though I recall a letter between a medieval Polish Duke and the King of Bohemia talking about shared language and culture). I don't support the inclusion of Poland for reasons I've already given, but Poland goes in well ahead of Austria for the main game for common sense reasons besides being historically more important that that little region, whose only importance comes from being the place where the main cluster of Hapbsurg estates in Germany lay, and in as a 2nd rate power in the 19th and early 20th centuries. Lithuania, the Magyars/Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria, Serbia in that order are the states/civs needed for expansion of E. European representation, not a German-march/archduchy. Austria can come into individual scenarios designed to simulate state interaction/rivalry at particular points in history in Europe, but cannot come into the maingame when Germany is already there. That is unless we add scores more "civs" such as Wessex, Northumbria, Castile, Aragon, Novgorod, Saxony, Bavaria, Franconia, Gascony, Normandy, Lombardy, several historical Chinese states, etc, etc. But knowing the civ developers, they'll probably add Austria anyways. :lol: :(

    Austria is German in most meaningful ways, and the relationship between Germany and Austria is not in any way comparable with the relationship between Ireland and England. Austrians are, in fact, historical Bavarians and undoutedly would have regarded themselves as such into the present if it hadn't been for political developments. Austria, originally Ostmark or the [Bavarian] East March. was to Bavaria what Brandenburg (from in a manner of speaking the "Saxon East March") was to Saxony. Austrians - whatever that means (see below), always regarded themselves as German until recently as I'm sure everyone here knows. And in fact, if you speak to Austrians today - esp. older ones - you'll find they still unconsciously think of themelves as Germans, even if they don't think of this as their nationality.

    I can't stand how people almost univerally accept and are prepared to rewrite history in order to sustain culturally and historically arbitrary, recently erected political boundaries, esp. when they were created by foreigners to weaken them. I mean, you get some arbitrary country/detached region created in order to weaken Germany, brainwash its inhabitants, and then they start talking of historical Austrians and Germans as if they were different. Whereas, if you asked any "Austrian" before 1945 what ethnicity he or she was (and in fact even if you asked most Austrians today, in an indirect way), I think you know what they would say. And why did no Austrians settle in the USA before the end of WWII? Answer? They all were recorded and were happy to be recorded as "Germans". By contrast, Scots, Irish and Scots-Irish were not recorded as English or even British. And what is a historical "Austrian" anyway? Someone, for instance, from 18th century or 19th century Salzburg would not have regarded themselves as Austrian even in a regional way, since Salzburg was not part of Austria, but part of the Archbishopric of Salzburg under the King of Germany. Oh, and what was that title the Archbishop used and still uses to this day? Oh yeah, Primas Germaniae, "first of Germany"! Oh, and what about the Deutschlandlied, the German national anthem, music written by Joseph Haydn as the anthem for the German Emperor/Archduke of Austria, Francis II.

    Austria is not some neighbour of Germany comparable to Ireland, Scotland or Wales with England. Irish, Scots and Welsh have never ever ever thought of themselves or been thought of as English. The latter are ancient Celtic nations with partial cultural and less partial linguistic anglicisation and political incorporation (not longer applicable btw for most of Ireland). Austria is a result, like Brandenburg, of High Medieval expansion of the German people and state into neighbouring Slavic lands. Austria is more like the English march counties (Shropshire, Herefordshire, etc), except that Austria became the centre of the confederal German state in the early modern era and contains some of the main centres of High German culture, whereas the English march counties were always culturally and politically peripheral. And indeed after the disolution of the "thousand year old" German state in 1806, Austria became the main hope for the ressurection of a united Germany, until defeated by Prussia, a state that only became mostly German because of recent territorial acquisitions.

    I see you've been watching the Sound of Music? :lol: Austrians and Bavarians in fact provided much of the core of the Nazi movement. The Austrians loved their glorious Nazi party and its anti-semitic and expansionary policies as much as if not more so than other Germans. I mean, where was Hitler from .... eh? If it wasn't for the fact that the US and the Soviets decided between themselves to separate Austria again, the Austrians today would be good nationalistic guilt-ridden Germans.
     
  16. Lacaixa

    Lacaixa Warlord

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    Calm down people ,especially Barton . Don't go banging your head. First of all I'm not Polish and have no nationalistic motive for seeing Poland or any other country or civ in the game. I would say however that Eastern Europe as compared to Western Europe lacks representation . It seems to me that Poland because of among other things it's size is the strongest candidate. Yet BTS will add two more West European civs.
    I absolutely stand by my point about Poland being sandwiched between Russia and Germany . In CIV IV terms it's like starting between Monty and Ghengis with no copper, iron or horses. I'd restart the game. I think the history of Poland would back me up on this.
    Your list .....well done , it looks pretty good to me . Of course a few names will have to change to reflect the ancient nature of some (Incans, Mayans, Aztecs, Zulus etc ) but basically they're all there aren't they except you seem to have missed Italy/Rome out which unfortunately relegates Kenya . Oh well perhaps they'll get in the next expansion . I don't know who Cheaters and DRC are BTW.
     
  17. Barton

    Barton Chieftain

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    Nice, nice...
    Now you have some good points, especially the Austrians are Germans, which is true. Now the point still remains the massive empire under the Austrian and Hapsburgs name, you may not be seeing the wood from the trees here but, I have a real thing about empire over people. I hate the idea of a Native American civilization for that reason, and the celts somewhat annoy me, but I have already given up that rant. Though I am still of the belief that Vienna and Austria do deserve a civ of their own for some of the greatly significant things they had achived and more importantly what the Hapsburgs had done. Though it would be hard in the format of the game to have a Hapsburgs empire. But yes, in allot of Ways Austria was sort of like a more modern Poland, Big empire for a few hundred years then collapse, but they were also an intergral part of the Holy Roman Empire, but it is true they can be under the name of German threre.

    Maybe I need to put it down to decide yourselves. I know I think they should be in. Austria was a great and powerful empire that covered allot of Eastern Europe and the Balkans. But the question is down to were they powerful enough for long enough.

    In the same way I think Poland should be in a future expansion, but still NOT THIS ONE. I think poland is just under the line at which I would put it in. But you know.

    Also Austria is very different to Bavaria now, they have crafted a new identity, remember in under william the conquerer the official language of England was French. Shakespear made nearly half the english language, and english is now essentially a hybrid of Germanic, Romantic & Celtic languages. Things change with time.
     
  18. Pokurcz

    Pokurcz Emperor

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    Yeah your probably right, would have been fun dough...


    Anyway, note how our mutual friend talks of himself in the third person” *looks back through his own messages looking for this*”, actually finding it important to defend his receding ego and making it the first thing he mentions, clearly elevating the issue in to the most important ones, right after denouncing cinema as something below him, as he finishes the topic off with “Now, take note: I'm awesome, your not.” He cements the image of him having a low social status at his school (in the real world), and how large his ego is compared with his actual grasp of reality, and how heavily it (The Ego) must have struck the ground as it was toppled.

    Clearly he believes he is some sort of superhero, like Spectacle Man, the one who can give you small burns by using the Sun and his Glasses!

    Now Mr Barton

    The Soviet army had a 3 to 1 numerical advantage to the Polish, and managed to push the Poles all the way to the capital, so clearly they had considerable forces at hand at the time, which they had scrambled over a three year period, especially compared to say…. Germany who stood practically defenceless after its loss of the war.

    Now Vilnius had a population with Poles in majority, so the Polish government was acting according to current standards when the peace negotiations after the Great War had not defined its eastern borders, hence the push in to the Ukraine, and other concentrations of Polish people.

    Now in 1939, the Germans and the Soviets had a little pact, and basically decided to divide Poland between themselves, The Bolsheviks did this partly because they where still pissed over their loss in 1920, where Stalin himself had failed personally, and did a very good job of executing over twenty thousand Polish officers, policemen and intelligentsia in the most brutal fashion like in Katyn. So you might as well say that the Jews deserved the holocaust for wearing funny haircuts.

    Anyway, your feeble attempts have not budged the points in my initial post at all, especially as you haven’t touched the most of them.
     
  19. Barton

    Barton Chieftain

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    First of a, Poland acted entirely out of line by taking things into their own hands. Germany had been more screwed by Versailles than anyone else. Poland only ended up existing because of Wilson's 14 points, but you know, defent ungreatful jackasses to the high hills.

    Now if order to explain why I started with "I don't watch..." is because I answer from the bottom of a post to the top, unless its quite long, or boaring me. And yes, I am a superhero, Bartonman, with the ability to lead a new land into the 20th century with large tariffs because I'm overly Xenophobic.

    Low social status, *looks around*, you come to this conclusion cause I got boared and came here, in which case that would mean the same to you. If you want to know my reasons, I am currently suffering from a cold and have gone home to my in the country to relax and I need something to occupy myself. The I'm awesome, your not really shows my low social status doesn't it. Or it may just be I am just really awesome. I think it may be you of the low social status due to the way you seem to take on my ego so. Though you may never touch it for I am so supremly awesome. *Smiles to himself and unleashes the monkey whilst listening to real music [Money for Nothing]*

    The third person thing, ???. Just how I put it. *I look around* doesn't sound or look right. It just sounds better to me thats all.

    Laciaxa, Cheaters are Italy. They won the world cup on Grosso's diving ability. Lucas Neill did nothing wrong, Italy did not win that game, and as for match fixing... The DRC is the Democratic Rebublic of the Congo [Zaire]. So no, kenyas not off, and I listed the current 34 most populous places to show how you can't just put people in by the population.
     
  20. Joe Harker

    Joe Harker 1st in the Premiership!

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    Barton you are clearly ingorant of other peoples views, I don't believe Poland should be, or Austria, but i don't attack everyone who does, i respect their views
     
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