Poland

[Wodhann]

Surprised a thread wasn't already made for this civ.

Anyway, I have a big beef with Poland's UA. Remember my complaints about Brazil's old UA? Well, this one is perhaps even worse in that regard.

Essencially, you're getting something you're already pursuing, for doing something you are already going to do anyway. It is an inherently unbalanced concept in that it's an UA that is simply there to make your life better, not to provide alternative ways to play the game. If you disagree, then you'll have to tell me in what scenario does a person not seek technology or social policies.

Now, I don't know that much about IRL Poland so I really wouldn't know what direction to go from here. All I know is that their UA could have been much more creative and fun (and balanced).

I would appreciate if polish people from these forums would explain what aspect of their country they think is worth putting into an UA, too.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Didn't Gazebo say more than a week ago that no overhauls of UAs will be made anymore? That was in Korea thread.

 

[Wodhann]

Didn't Gazebo say more than a week ago that no overhauls of UAs will be made anymore? That was in Korea thread.

If he did that was a premature declaration in my opinion. Poland's is one of the few that remains untouched, and it needs to be looked at.

 

[Funak]

This has been up in the air since the very start, I even remember that modcast interview that Gazebo did when they talked about leader balance and the first thing one of the members brought up was if we changed Poland, because Polands UA is just stupid.

That being said I really don't care enough about Poland or their UA to argue with Gazebo.

 

[Wodhann]

That being said I really don't care enough about Poland or their UA to argue with Gazebo.

For some reason I thought you were polish. What country are you from, by the way?

 

[Orlanduke]

Essencially, you're getting something you're already pursuing, for doing something you are already going to do anyway. It is an inherently unbalanced concept in that it's an UA that is simply there to make your life better, not to provide alternative ways to play the game. If you disagree, then you'll have to tell me in what scenario does a person not seek technology or social policies.

I always considered the point of Poland's UA was to give you wiggle room, both in base Civ 5 and in the CBP. Especially now that wonders are tied to social policies. It's certainly a boring UA on paper, but when you take advantage of what it offers you, it can really help you shape a game plan way easier, without having to worry about pumping out massive amounts of culture to get the social policies you need.

I also have to ask, if you have issues with getting freebies in the 'Standard' gameplay, do you have a gripe with Ethiopa's UA too? Ideologies, completing policy branches, and adopting beliefs, are all part of the normal game (minus beliefs, but with the Stele, it's a little difficult NOT to be at least a contender for a religion), and you just get free techs for them too, which I would argue are way more pointless than getting free Social Policies.

I don't care enough to argue either (I don't play Poland much at all), just adding my 2 cents from my own experience.

 

[Wodhann]

I always considered the point of Poland's UA was to give you wiggle room, both in base Civ 5 and in the CBP. Especially now that wonders are tied to social policies. It's certainly a boring UA on paper, but when you take advantage of what it offers you, it can really help you shape a game plan way easier, without having to worry about pumping out massive amounts of culture to get the social policies you need.

You're helping my point. It's too good. It doesn't encourage the player to go either way, it doesn't challenge the player.

I also have to ask, if you have issues with getting freebies in the 'Standard' gameplay, do you have a gripe with Ethiopa's UA too? Ideologies, completing policy branches, and adopting beliefs, are all part of the normal game (minus beliefs, but with the Stele, it's a little difficult NOT to be at least a contender for a religion), and you just get free techs for them too, which I would argue are way more pointless than getting free Social Policies.

Can you remind what ethiopia's UA is currently?

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Also I don't find the "get something you're pursuing anyway for something you were going to do anyway" justification for change very convincing. The same can be said of every UA in existence.

Zulu - get faster promotions and less gold upkeep on an army you were going to have anyway, whether you were going to use it for defence or offence.
Portugal/Ottomans - get yields for doing something you were going to do anyway - sending caravans
Indonesia - get resources for something you were going to do anyway (settle)
etc. If you look at it this way, every civ (except those two below) follows this rule.

Only civs that don't follow this rule are Venice (due to the drawbacks of the UA) and sort-of Spain, which is discouraged from settling too much before founding religion (as half of the UA - instant conversion - is wasted, and the UA is bad enough without having a part of its usability removed) but also settling too much after as not settling enough means you won't get the tiny but still necessary one-time faith which could lead to you not getting a religion.


I'm Polish myself, the UA would be pretty hard to do without encroaching on other civs a bit. Like about all European civs, Poland could be pretty much anything based but I think Faith/Culture/Religion focus would be more fitting. IIRC Gazebo doesn't like faith/religion focus and he stated or at least implied (in Arabia thread) that there's already too much religious civs.

Poland could be:

Vistula/Pilsudzki focused into a defensive civ for the defence of Vistula (used to be taken by Ethiopia but no longer is, however it's soft-claimed by some and rather boring, not to mention defending your lands is something you want to do anyway)
faith offensive/defensive civ for Sobieski's Hussar charge and rescue of Vienna (taken by Spain, unless a different approach is taken?)
structural/building/hurry production (Casimir related, turned Poland from a country with many wooden structures into brick, built other stuff)
Golden Age for Polish Golden Age during which nobility ruled in a sort-of democracy (taken by Persia/Brazil/others)
Something CS based could also work I guess considering the commonwealth with Lithuania? Or Civ friendship based, like Sweden used to.
Cultural (like every civilisation could be)
Science, GP as pretty much every Eurasian Civ
Golden Noble Liberty (weird type of a rather unique early democracy) focused, but the baroque leftist-like values of "tolerance" which was driven by personal monetary gains (as current leftism also is) resulted in the country being partitioned and conquered so better not
and more

Can't force myself to put any real effort since it's not going to achieve anything and, tbh, the current UA is not a problem. At least it makes getting to the next era interesting and is not as good as Korea's (more sopols won't help you at all when Sejong is about 1.5 eras ahead), but then nothing is as good as Korea's.

 

[Orlanduke]

You're helping my point. It's too good. It doesn't encourage the player to go either way, it doesn't challenge the player.

Can you remind what ethiopia's UA is currently?

I disagree, it certainly used to be god-tier in normal Civ 5, but now I feel if the player doesn't make smart choices investing their policies, you get very little returns. Social policies seem (to me) to have diminishing returns as the game continues on, and if you made the wrong investments, you'll be left with a tree you're not using.

Ethiopan UA:
'When you complete a Policy Branch, adopt a Belief (including pantheon), or choose your first Ideology, receive a free Technology'

 

[Wodhann]

I disagree, it certainly used to be god-tier in normal Civ 5, but now I feel if the player doesn't make smart choices investing their policies, you get very little returns. Social policies seem (to me) to have diminishing returns as the game continues on, and if you made the wrong investments, you'll be left with a tree you're not using.

It's still free policies.

Ethiopan UA:
'When you complete a Policy Branch, adopt a Belief (including pantheon), or choose your first Ideology, receive a free Technology'

I see. I don't like it either, though it's slightly better than Poland's.

Also I don't find the "get something you're pursuing anyway for something you were going to do anyway" justification for change very convincing. The same can be said of every UA in existence.

Poland's literally gives you policies for free, by doing what you already do every game.

Zulu - get faster promotions and less gold upkeep on an army you were going to have anyway, whether you were going to use it for defence or offence.

Military based UAs are naturally less "free" because of the nature of war itself. War is an active thing, in order to benefit from a war you need to get moving. Though as far as war UAs go, that one is kind of on the bland side.

Portugal/Ottomans - get yields for doing something you were going to do anyway - sending caravans

Honestly I forgot what these UAs are currently.

Indonesia - get resources for something you were going to do anyway (settle)
etc. If you look at it this way, every civ (except those two below) follows this rule.

Luxuries aren't nearly as universally valuable as social policies. You're missing the "getting something you'll always want" part of my argument.

I'm Polish myself, the UA would be pretty hard to do without encroaching on other civs a bit. Like about all European civs, Poland could be pretty much anything based but I think Faith/Culture/Religion focus would be more fitting. IIRC Gazebo doesn't like faith/religion focus and he stated or at least implied (in Arabia thread) that there's already too much religious civs.

Poland could be:

Vistula/Pilsudzki focused into a defensive civ for the defence of Vistula (used to be taken by Ethiopia but no longer is, however it's soft-claimed by some and rather boring, not to mention defending your lands is something you want to do anyway)
faith offensive/defensive civ for Sobieski's Hussar charge and rescue of Vienna (taken by Spain, unless a different approach is taken?)
structural/building/hurry production (Casimir related, turned Poland from a country with many wooden structures into brick, built other stuff)
Golden Age for Polish Golden Age during which nobility ruled in a sort-of democracy (taken by Persia/Brazil/others)
Something CS based could also work I guess considering the commonwealth with Lithuania? Or Civ friendship based, like Sweden used to.
Cultural (like every civilisation could be)
Science, GP as pretty much every Eurasian Civ
Golden Noble Liberty focused, but the baroque leftist-like values of "tolerance" which was driven by personal monetary gains (as current leftism also is) resulted in the country being partitioned and conquered so better not
and more

Can't force myself to put any real effort since it's not going to achieve anything and, tbh, the current UA is not a problem. At least it makes getting to the next era interesting and is not as good as Korea's (more sopols won't help you at all when Sejong is about 1.5 eras ahead), but then nothing is as good as Korea's.

Interesting suggestions. Remember we can still work with something somewhat like the old UA, but make it more challenging and fun.

 

[Gazebo]

Didn't Gazebo say more than a week ago that no overhauls of UAs will be made anymore? That was in Korea thread.

I did. And it wasn't premature (as per Wodhann), but rather a calculated decision regarding a scaling-back of mod-related features versus spit and polish (pun intended?).

So yeah, not going to be changing the Polish UA. Who cares if it is 'something you are going to already do.' If that's the case, then a pox on most UAs I guess.

G

Edit: sarcastic ideas for Poland:

"Poland cannot ever be defeated. Every time Poland is wiped off the map, the Capital reverts to Polish control 50 turns later and the Civilization is resurrected."

"If Germany, Russia, and Austria are ever in a game with Poland, and also Poland's neighbors, they each get to take a Polish city for free if Poland has four or more cities."

 

[Wodhann]

I did. And it wasn't premature (as per Wodhann), but rather a calculated decision regarding a scaling-back of mod-related features versus spit and polish (pun intended?).

So yeah, not going to be changing the Polish UA. Who cares if it is 'something you are going to already do.' If that's the case, then a pox on most UAs I guess.

It's a stupidly designed UA that gives you something you will always want, by doing something you always do. I am still baffled by how it still remains how it is and was never touched. And according to Funak people even brought it up on the modcast and it's still untouched.

 

[Gazebo]

It's a stupidly designed UA that gives you something you will always want, by doing something you always do. I am still baffled by how it still remains how it is and was never touched. And according to Funak people even brought it up on the modcast and it's still untouched.

Stupidly designed? It was the gold-standard of OP for a long time. Now it is mid-tier, perhaps a bit better. Free policies are quite flexible – Poland gets to grab ideologies faster (the chance that they'll unlock ideologies in the Renaissance is actually pretty good), they're ahead of the curve on Wonder policy requirements, and they can get finisher unlock wonders a bit earlier. All in all it opens up some solid gameplay avenues for Poland. It is fun and people enjoy it, even if it is 'brain-dead' in terms of fulfilling the requirement.

G

 

[Wodhann]

Stupidly designed? It was the gold-standard of OP for a long time. Now it is mid-tier, perhaps a bit better. Free policies are quite flexible – Poland gets to grab ideologies faster (the chance that they'll unlock ideologies in the Renaissance is actually pretty good), they're ahead of the curve on Wonder policy requirements, and they can get finisher unlock wonders a bit earlier. All in all it opens up some solid gameplay avenues for Poland. It is fun and people enjoy it, even if it is 'brain-dead' in terms of fulfilling the requirement.

Honestly all I see are arguments reinforcing my point - it is too good, conceptually speaking.

Let me give you an analogy.

The way I see civs, I equate them as classes in an RPG/dungeon crawler game. You have the base stats for a human (or whatever race) and then you have the classes which fundamentally change how you play the game when playing each class. So a warrior will be straightfoward frontline fighting, a mage will focus on long range alternative damage and utility, a rogue will focus on stealth, etc etc.

Let's say that there is a class that lets you get a free skill every time you level up. No focus, no specification, just straight up free skill. Is this encouraging you to go a certain type of gameplay? No, it just straight up gives you something you will always want. Its at most OP, at least bland and generic.

Same deal with Poland. Even if you "nerf" it and just makes it so that you get free culture, it then becomes bland and boring. There is no way to balance this. It is a bad idea at its core.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

.

Military based UAs are naturally less "free" because of the nature of war itself. War is an active thing, in order to benefit from a war you need to get moving. Though as far as war UAs go, that one is kind of on the bland side.

On one side yes, on the other Zulu helps your economy too (-upkeep on land stuff) and you always want faster promotions. It is bland tho.

Honestly I forgot what these UAs are.

It mentions it right there in my post. Yields/GP points (Portugal) for sending caravans, in Ottoman's case for finishing Caravans.

Luxuries aren't nearly as universally valuable as social policies. You're missing the "getting something you'll always want" part of my argument.

You always want more luxuries, especially considering Indonesia also gets a free +20% growth monopoly, +Production monopoly from another luxury and something else from the third monopoly, forgot what. I don't see anyone turning down more luxuries, especially considering you're the only one who can get them (unless you get conquered which you don't want)

Interesting suggestions. Remember we can still work with something somewhat like the old UA, but make it more challenging and fun.

Since you insist, two of my ideas. Heavily Casimir the Great related.

Something like "During Golden Age, investing into buildings causes them to be instantly built and cost no maintenance" would be pretty fitting for Casimir considering his history, interesting enough, very unique, requires a strategy to use optimally - but AI wouldn't get that it should keep to its money until GA.
Could be nerfed to become something like "works only once per city for a GA proc (if several procs are made to prolong the GA, you get more uses of course)" but that'd make it pretty bad and would require another part, something like "every building invest-built grants a permanent +2GAP/Culture (or Faith) in the capital".

Another option? "After adopting a SoPol or proccing a Golden Age, anything the cities are working on is invested in (including units, -50% production cost) or, if it's already been invested in, it gets instantly built (wonders excluded, their cost is reduced by further 25% prod).
If too weak, WLTKD should also count or +Faith from something. Of course no production already spent is lost - if you've got 80% of a Granary built and the cost is reduced to a half, the remaining 30% goes to your next project. Could require some +yields somewhere even with WLTKD

But I like the current one

 

[Wodhann]

Golden ages are kind of overdone at this point, honestly. Not trying to shoot you down, absolutely suggest ideas, but can we do something that doesn't rely on them?

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

"Poland cannot ever be defeated. Every time Poland is wiped off the map, the Capital reverts to Polish control 50 turns later and the Civilization is resurrected."

"If Germany, Russia, and Austria are ever in a game with Poland, and also Poland's neighbors, they each get to take a Polish city for free if Poland has four or more cities."

Give America something like:

"Can help CSs and Civilisations once a game. If helped, anything between 25% to 50% of the populace dies and is replaced with religious barbarians. Twice as effective against Babylon and Assyria."

 

[Gazebo]

Your RPG argument falls flat. Look at Pathfinder's Human class:

Skilled: Humans gain an additional skill rank at first level and one additional rank whenever they gain a level.

Functions, and allows more customization as the game goes along. Just like Poland.

I don't want anyone to waste their time, so I should probably just note that I'm not going to touch the Polish UA.

"Can help CSs and Civilisations once a game. If helped, anything between 25% to 50% of the populace dies and is replaced with religious barbarians. Twice as effective against Babylon and Assyria."

Haha. American foreign aid is like a bad marriage – easy to get, probably going to take your house and kids before it is over.

G

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Your RPG argument falls flat. Look at Pathfinder's Human class:



Functions, and allows more customization as the game goes along. Just like Poland.

I don't want anyone to waste their time, so I should probably just note that I'm not going to touch the Polish UA.

G

Can you buff Spain's UA tho? It's pretty terrible yield wise. IMHO it could get +Food in the capital on top of Faith to represent the food types taken from America by the Spanish to be eaten/sold/grown in Europe. Would make the civ less one-dimensional (only faith/gold yields affected in anything) and it'd additionally synergise well with Mission.

 

[Wodhann]

Your RPG argument falls flat. Look at Pathfinder's Human class:

... Human is a race. Besides, every RPG treats classes/races differently, I'm talking about a specific game design philosophy for classes.

Functions, and allows more customization as the game goes along. Just like Poland.

"Functons" is a terrible argument for something. The base game happiness system "functioned".

I don't want anyone to waste their time, so I should probably just note that I'm not going to touch the Polish UA.

This is the balance patch. Why would you not change it? It's a terrible UA and the arguments in favor of it fall short. Pretty much every argument I see supports it being "good" (which is, by the way, one of my points), not being "well designed and balanceable".