Poland!

[crdvis16]

In general I prefer civs whose kit gives you an opportunity to play uniquely and for that reason I've largely ignored Poland. However, I've played the more unique civs recently so it's time to play some that I am less intrigued by. Perhaps Poland will be surprisingly fun!

Casimir III - Solidarity

Gain a free Social Policy in the Classical Era, and every other Era after. Gain two additional free Tenets when you adopt an Ideology for the first time.

Winged Hussar, replaces Lancer. Has more Combat Strength (40 vs. 35) and +1 Movement Points (5 vs. 4). Obsoletes at Combined Arms rather than Combustion. Starts with the Heavy Charge (forces defenders to retreat when this Unit inflicts more damage than it receives, and if a defender cannot retreat it takes extra damage) and Formation I Promotions.

Ducal Stable, replaces Stable. +50% Production (up from 33%) and +15 XP for Mounted Melee Units. Nearby Horses, Sheep, and Cattle Provide 3 Production (up from +2) and +3 Gold. Provides 1 free Horse.

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Brief thoughts on their kit:

First, the UA gives you 6 total free policies throughout the game. While free policies are useful no matter what victory condition you pursue they are most directly important to a tourism/culture victory. The 10 ideology tenet requirement to achieve a culture victory is often the thing you're waiting for in the end game assuming you've successfully created enough tourism to influence other nations so speeding that up significantly means Poland has the opportunity to complete a tourism victory very early.

Also, the free policies can help with wonder building as you can often be restricted by policy requirements especially if you beeline a portion of the tech tree to get to certain wonders ASAP. Poland's free policies means he has a better shot at building wonders. You're also nearly guaranteed to open ideologies first so you better make sure your tourism/culture is strong enough to impose your will on subsequent adopters.

The Winged Hussar looks like a really fun UU. It's a late-arriving UU (lancer replacement) which often makes them less impactful. However, it seems like positioning their attacks to proc 'Heavy Charge' could be a fun little mini game and make them a beast in a human's hands (no idea if the AI is good at using this ability).

The Ducal Stable makes Knights (and every subsequent mounted melee unit) an honorary UU by making them cost less production in any city with the stable and giving them extra starting experience. Being able to pump those units out is a strong bonus similar to the Ottoman forge replacement with siege units. The stable also makes any land with pastures extra attractive as settling spots.

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General strategy:

I'll plan to lean into Poland's free policies and go for a tourism/culture victory. Since the policy requirement for a culture/tourism victory will almost take care of itself I'll need to make sure my tourism/influence keeps pace as it will most likely be the thing holding my victory up. Poland doesn't have much in the way of helping a wide culture/tourism victory so I will likely plan to stay tall and small while focusing on wonders and great works to power my tourism.

Tradition->Artistry->Rationalism seems like the best choice. Fealty has some interesting synergy with Poland (extra gold/production on pastures, religious benefits if I happen to have a strong religion, stronger internal trade routes if I'm buffing my capital with them) but overall Artistry is probably too strong for a tall tourism strategy to miss.

I'll probably try to play relatively peacefully other than maybe a jaunt into offensive warfare with Winged Hussar. Of course, if the situation demands it I will get my hands dirty but I do not plan on conquering my way to victory.

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Religion:

God of the Open Sky (+1 Culture in city per 2 worked plains or 2 worked grassland tiles without hills or features. +1 faith and +3 gold from pastures) seems like an ideal pantheon assuming my starting area is rich in pasture improved tiles. If my starting area is not pasture strong then any number of pantheons are probably viable given the terrain.

For founders, the only one that seems uniquely fitting to Poland would be Holy Law (Faith/Science/Gold when unlocking a policy based on followers). It's tall friendly (based on followers instead of cities) and Poland will surely be unlocking a lot of policies so it would probably be my default choice. However, any number of founders would be useful largely depending on if my religion will be aggressively spreading or more insular which will be determined by my religious neighborhood.

Options for followers are pretty wide open. Cathedrals have gold on pastures which might be nice- I could just stack tons of yields on my pastures via Open Sky, Ducal Stable, and Cathedrals! Any of the /follower beliefs would probably be nice, especially if I'm hurting for, say, science. I probably wouldn't pick a religious building other than Cathedrals as I think the buildings are usually stronger for wide empires.

My Enhancer choice will probably be too circumstantial to plan ahead of time- so many of them depend on whether your religion is spreading (and how it spreads) or insular.

Last- my Reformation belief of choice would probably be Faith of the Masses but realistically it's difficult to predict. It might largely depend on my faith production, insular vs spreading, and if I feel deficient in some area (like perhaps science?). I kind of doubt To the Glory of God would be ideal for Poland, for instance, as I sort of doubt I'd have enough faith to bother purchasing great people other than Musicians in the late game.

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Early Game:

I pretty much always go shrine->monument in Tradition games where I hope to found a religion. Monument 2nd seems less punishing for Tradition as it just gives you a few more turns to birth an extra citizen and get better use out of the free population from opening tradition.

My first tech will almost certainly be Animal Husbandry. I will want to know where those pasture improved tiles are so that I can plan how aggressively I need to build settlers in order to grab the best locations. I'll hope for a few pasture-rich locations and will settle defensively as I'll need terrain on my side for defensive wars where I'm likely to be outnumbered.

My next tech priority will be to get to the Classical era ASAP as doing so will give me my first free policy via Poland's UA. That free policy combined with beelining into a Classical era tech should practically guarantee me a Classical era wonder of my choosing as other civs shouldn't be able to have the policy requirements satisfied if they beeline the same one. The two best candidates I see are probably Hanging Garden or Great Library. Great Library to me is more of a Progress wonder even if it is helpful with any opening whereas Hanging Garden has very obvious benefits for a Tradition start especially given that Poland could really use the extra food in order to support Tradition's specialist slots. I'll most likely go Mathematics for Hanging Garden.

Chivalry for Ducal Stables and Education for Sankore would be obvious next priorities. In general I will try to reach/beeline in the tech tree as Poland is simply incentivized to do so when policy requirements for wonders are so easy to achieve. I'll especially try to open up new eras that give free policies ASAP whenever possible.

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Mid/Late Game:

Metallurgy for Lancers will surely be a priority of the Renaissance as well as going for all of the typical tourism wonders I can get. Having extra policies will surely help me gain extra tourism throughout the game by having important tourism policies earlier than normal but I will most definitely still need wonders, great works, and trade route/musician tourism bombs to get influential across the board.

The choice of ideology will likely be a very consequential point for Poland. Immediately getting 2 extra tenets could potentially be highly exploitable if done right. I think Freedom typically makes the most sense for a Tradition/Tall empire and a few of the tenets therein that might be big for Poland are:

Volunteer Army (6 free foreign legion) - If Poland opens ideology super early it's possible for foreign legion to be VASTLY superior to any other forces around. If they arrive early enough they could probably turn the tide in any wars by themselves.

Universal Healthcare (free hospitals) - Not required to have the tech unlocked so if you get this tenet well before Hospitals are available you're getting something way earlier than you should.

On the other hand, a number of tenets might be weaker than usual if Poland opens them extra early. Creative Expression (extra tourism from culture buildings) can't shine if you don't have the tech for many of the buildings yet. Economic Union (extra gold from trading with other Freedom civs) loses some benefit if there aren't other Freedom civs yet. Their Finest Hour (can build B17 bombers) loses some benefit if you don't have the tech and Media Culture (+tourism from cities with Broadcast Towers) loses its punch if you are still a ways away from building those towers. The typical priority or preference of ideologies might be quite different in a Poland game.

 

[tu_79]

First, the UA gives you 6 total free policies throughout the game.

Actually, they are 4:
Classical, Renaissance, Industrial and Information.
Every other means one yes, one no.

 

[Enginseer]

Actually, they are 4:
Classical, Renaissance, Industrial and Information.
Every other means one yes, one no.

Tenets work like policies, so it is 6 free policies.

 

[Favorius]

Even with a handful pastures, God of the Open Sky is not a good pantheon for finding religion unless you grab Stonehenge.

 

[phantomaxl1207]

Even with a handful pastures, God of the Open Sky is not a good pantheon for finding religion unless you grab Stonehenge.

You can get very good amounts of Gold from Open Sky, however. Culture helps, provided you don't have too many Sheep.

 

[crdvis16]

Tenets work like policies, so it is 6 free policies.

Sorry, yes- this is what I meant. 4 free policies plus 2 extra tenets when adopting ideology = 6 total toward the culture/tourism victory requirement.

Even with a handful pastures, God of the Open Sky is not a good pantheon for finding religion unless you grab Stonehenge.

You can get very good amounts of Gold from Open Sky, however. Culture helps, provided you don't have too many Sheep.

I imagine Poland doesn't necessarily have a starting bias that guarantees stables tiles so I might not be super likely to go this route anyway. It would be nice for thematic reasons if I'm able to but if it's tough to found with Open Sky then it may just be a bad idea anyway.

 

[DeAnno]

My general go-tos for Founding with Tradition lately have been God of the Sea (if you have lots of sea stuff and are full coastal) and Expanse (if you don't). Expanse is just really fast at producing early Faith with Sovereignty, works better with wider Tradition in general but still really powerful even on a smaller number of cities, and it synergizes with getting Ankor Wat in your capital later for the free Mandir. God of the Sea is super strong if you have some Atolls, or if you have just a lot of fish and sea luxes it has a good early impact with the free +2f/1faith you get as a base on each city.

On higher difficulty levels it can be pretty hard to found outside of a few pantheons or a really bonkers start.

 

[Favorius]

My general go-tos for Founding with Tradition lately have been God of the Sea (if you have lots of sea stuff and are full coastal) and Expanse (if you don't). Expanse is just really fast at producing early Faith with Sovereignty, works better with wider Tradition in general but still really powerful even on a smaller number of cities, and it synergizes with getting Ankor Wat in your capital later for the free Mandir. God of the Sea is super strong if you have some Atolls, or if you have just a lot of fish and sea luxes it has a good early impact with the free +2f/1faith you get as a base on each city.

On higher difficulty levels it can be pretty hard to found outside of a few pantheons or a really bonkers start.

With tradition I find rushing for Stonehenge and getting goddess of beauty pantheon gives high chance for a religion (%90). For 2nd tradition policy I pick culture and faith giving one.

 

[crdvis16]

My general go-tos for Founding with Tradition lately have been God of the Sea (if you have lots of sea stuff and are full coastal) and Expanse (if you don't). Expanse is just really fast at producing early Faith with Sovereignty, works better with wider Tradition in general but still really powerful even on a smaller number of cities, and it synergizes with getting Ankor Wat in your capital later for the free Mandir. God of the Sea is super strong if you have some Atolls, or if you have just a lot of fish and sea luxes it has a good early impact with the free +2f/1faith you get as a base on each city.

On higher difficulty levels it can be pretty hard to found outside of a few pantheons or a really bonkers start.

With tradition I find rushing for Stonehenge and getting goddess of beauty pantheon gives high chance for a religion (%90). For 2nd tradition policy I pick culture and faith giving one.

I think any of the terrain dependent pantheons can found even as tradition. And Stonehenge+Beauty is definitely a recipe for consistent founding, especially if you're playing a civ that is likely to grab a 2nd wonder soon thereafter. Progress is certainly better at getting secondary cities with shrines up faster but tradition has its early faith policy to somewhat make up for that. In either case you will typically only get the terrain based faith out of your first few cities by the time you need to found a religion so there shouldn't be a ton of difference between tradition and progress there IMO. Goddess of the Hunt, Spirit of the Desert, Goddess of Purity, etc should all be possible to found with using tradition if your surroundings have lots of tiles to get faith from.

I think tradition can have a tougher time long-term with faith generation and pressure, though. Fewer cities with shrines/temples and fewer cities to push pressure around can make it tougher so I often default to more insular religions as tradition in order to conserve my faith.

Of course, all of this goes out the window if you are playing a civ that has religious components to it. Poland is a pretty decent example of a traditionish civ that lacks religious bonuses so it's probably a good civ to use to prove that you can found using terrain based pantheons. I'm still planning to use Open Sky as long as I see enough pasture tiles in my immediate area and can report back on how I do once I get a chance to actually play...

 

[crdvis16]

An update:

I finally got a chance to play some last night. I decided to really try for a pasture rich start so I actually played a number of early games where I would quickly research animal husbandry and then decide if the start had enough pastures. Poland does not seem to have any sort of pasture bias so it took a number of restarts before I found one.

The game I ended up going with had 6 pasture tiles in my immediate area. My priorities were:

1) Secure 4 cities with those 6 pastures and 5 of my starting lux monopoly
2) Found a religion
3) Get Hanging Garden

My initial build order in capital was something like:

Shrine->monument->council->settler x3 (with a worker or two purchased ASAP)

A council that early is probably not normal but I think it made sense for two reasons. First, I wanted to grow my capital one more citizen before unlocking tradition and building a settler next would have stopped that. Second, I might need the little extra science to unlock Hanging Gardens ASAP.

I got away with just my scout for defense against barbarians and it seemed like in this particular game the AI must have been hunting them efficiently because I had no issues with them. God of the Open Sky's gold output enabled me to also rush-build shrines in my 3 satellite cities (I built shrines in all of them first) along with buying 2 workers to get my pastures improved ASAP. I even had the gold to buy tiles and get pastures sooner in some cities.

So priority 1 was secured- I got my pastures and my lux monopoly with my 4 city empire. Priority 2 was NOT secured, however. Despite pushing for early faith pretty hard I was only set to found my religion by ~turn 100. By turn 90 all 5 religions had been founded and I was out of luck. The only religious civ I know of currently in the game is Spain. I'm not sure if there are more religious civs on the other continent or maybe some of them settled a religious natural wonder or had a faith giving lux. Turn 100 is probably right on the edge of being able to found at Deity. It looks like Open Sky is indeed tough to found with even in a decent situation in terms of number of available early pastures.

Priority 3 worked out, though. Opening the Classical Era by beelining for Hanging Garden gave me my 4th policy to satisfy its requirement and I was able to build it. When I had just a few turns left on it someone completed the Roman Forum (same tech as Hanging Garden) which indicates that at least some AI got to that tech before me so it's probably not a given that you can get Hanging Garden as Poland but it seems at least fairly reasonable to expect to.

I'll have to decide if I want to stick with this game or maybe start over and try another strategy. I really like the idea of getting super-pastures as Poland and eventually losing Open Sky when I get converted to Spain's religion will make me sad. Perhaps I'll take @Favorius advice and try grabbing Stonehenge first to help me found. It will delay unlocking animal husbandry and knowing where my pastures are but can probably still work out.

 

[Favorius]

Turn 90 is a bit harsh. Do you play with ancient ruins and events turned on? I disable them.

For pantheon I suggest goddess of beauty. +4 faith as well as stonehenge's faith in turn 1 of your finding you pantheon puts you in a strong position. You will not lose turns improving resources. BTW I use my great persons to settle on pasture resources as stable boosts resource not improvement. So super pastures are not a thing.

 

[Bhawb]

BTW I use my great persons to settle on pasture resources as stable boosts resource not improvement. So super pastures are not a thing.

Technically, super pastures can be a thing. Beyond the Pantheon belief, Fealty and Churches also boost pastures specifically, not the resource. That said, Open Sky is definitely not a great pantheon to found with. I'd highly suggest changing the standard strategy to be more faith-heavy if you want to found with Open Sky. Things like Shrine first, Stonehenge, maybe if you are lucky and have a Faith resource, Natural Wonder, etc., because on its own Open Sky won't cut it. It is a great non-founding belief if you want to steal a religion though, the extra gold helps a ton with early military.

 

[Favorius]

Technically, super pastures can be a thing. Beyond the Pantheon belief, Fealty and Churches also boost pastures specifically, not the resource. That said, Open Sky is definitely not a great pantheon to found with. I'd highly suggest changing the standard strategy to be more faith-heavy if you want to found with Open Sky. Things like Shrine first, Stonehenge, maybe if you are lucky and have a Faith resource, Natural Wonder, etc., because on its own Open Sky won't cut it. It is a great non-founding belief if you want to steal a religion though, the extra gold helps a ton with early military.

Of course with fealty and cathedrals pastures become super good but I do not prefer Fealty as a following policy branch for Tradition.

 

[crdvis16]

Turn 90 is a bit harsh. Do you play with ancient ruins and events turned on? I disable them.

Standard/Standard, Deity, Continents++, no ruins, no events, no tech trading, no research agreements. And just VP+EUI. Maybe I just got unlucky with others founding fast? Either way, being on target to found at around turn 100 doesn't inspire great confidence that Open Sky is a consistent founder on its own as you said.

For pantheon I suggest goddess of beauty. +4 faith as well as stonehenge's faith in turn 1 of your finding you pantheon puts you in a strong position. You will not lose turns improving resources. BTW I use my great persons to settle on pasture resources as stable boosts resource not improvement. So super pastures are not a thing.

Agreed that beauty is probably a more consistent founder for tradition. For whatever reason Stonehenge seems to be fairly getable even on Deity.

Also agreed on usually placing great people on pastures- I often do the same. However, I kinda like the idea of trying to make super pastures as Poland now. I might not go as far as taking Fealty over Artistry to do so but I am probably going to give Open Sky, Churches, and Ducal Stables another try. This time I will find a way to supplement Open Sky (either natural wonder or faith giving lux if available or Stonehenge otherwise I think).

Technically, super pastures can be a thing. Beyond the Pantheon belief, Fealty and Churches also boost pastures specifically, not the resource. That said, Open Sky is definitely not a great pantheon to found with. I'd highly suggest changing the standard strategy to be more faith-heavy if you want to found with Open Sky. Things like Shrine first, Stonehenge, maybe if you are lucky and have a Faith resource, Natural Wonder, etc., because on its own Open Sky won't cut it. It is a great non-founding belief if you want to steal a religion though, the extra gold helps a ton with early military.

I think you and Favorius are right about Open Sky in general- it needs a supplement to consistently found. I would have founded at turn ~100 which will sometimes get you a religion (probably the last 1 or 2 available) but I would agree that it's not a consistent founder.

I would also agree that me being stubborn and wanting to force Open Sky and super pastures to be a thing is probably sub-optimal play for Poland (not to mention annoying having to restart games until I get a decent amount of pastures...). But I'm gonna do it anyway!

Of course with fealty and cathedrals pastures become super good but I do not prefer Fealty as a following policy branch for Tradition.

The bonus from Fealty is only 1 gold, 1 production on pastures so it's a smaller buff compared to Open Sky and Ducal. Probably not worth the opportunity cost of going Fealty over Artistry in this case as Artistry is likely a much stronger choice for tall/tradition tourism. Opportunity cost of choosing Churches over some other follower is hopefully a small difference. Opportunity cost of choosing Open Sky over a different pantheon should hopefully be small, too. It's weaker in faith but very strong in gold so if I can manage to found with it by supplementing with Stonehenge/Natural Wonder/Faith Lux then I think I'll be in good shape. Hopefully I can play some this weekend and will report back!

 

[DeAnno]

For whatever reason Stonehenge seems to be fairly getable even on Deity.

I noticed this playing America starts on Immortal a while back, Stonehenge was always a very easy get with lots of time to spare. You would think the AIs would go Pottery fast to settler spam and might randomly blunder into a quick Stonehenge more often, strange that its consistently fairly long.

I'm a little surprised you still couldn't found despite my earlier doubts, you really seem to have pressed hard. Shrines before Monuments in secondary cities and a lot of rush buying and no warriors, that's more pedal to the metal than I usually go. I guess to found with anything but a top tier faith pantheon you pretty much need Stonehenge or a natural wonder. (Beauty and Expanse seem to always be fine, Desert/Sea/Nature are really strong with proper setups, and Springtime can actually be OK too in my experience if you rush Trade ASAP and build markets everywhere as fast as you can.)

 

[crdvis16]

Quick update: I finally got into a very similar game to the last one with a good number of pasture tiles in my immediate area (6ish).

This time I went monument->stonehenge->shrine->settlers->etc. Still went rush built shrine first in my satellites and built pastures ASAP often buying tiles to do so as well. Overall was really greedy skipping military for the most part until after getting Hanging Gardens. It still took me until turn 98 to found! Though this time the AI was more reasonable and religions weren't gone until turn 102 I think. It seems like rushing stonehenge doesn't speed up religion founding as much as I thought but maybe shaves off a critical 5-10 turns which can often be the difference between founding and not.

With the release of the new patch I'll probably restart again anyway though and get another data point.

Edit: In my new game with the 4-20 patch I got the same result- getting stonehenge only shaves off 5 or so turns for founding but they are likely a critical 5 turns. I just snuck in with an Open Sky religion at around turn 100.

So far the game is going ok. I'm pretty rich partly thanks to Open Sky and a bunch of pastures. I've been largely thwarted by my neighbor Brazil from getting many wonders (he's led in techs by a lot the entire game and the two of us are a few policies ahead of the others). However, I just unlocked Hussars so it's time to see if I can rectify that . My plan is to take his capital and wonders and then hopefully play peacefully/defensively from then on.

 

[tu_79]

Open skies is a great pantheon for a religious civ. It's not too hard to found with it (given you have some extra faith) and the extra gold is very much welcomed. But I would not take it with a tall empire in mind. Founding a religion with tradition requires either scaling faith (Goddess of wisdom), either heavy investment in spreading / defending your religion, which detracts resources.

 

[crdvis16]

Another update:

My war with Brazil was successful. I took a total of 3 cities (one of which was his wonder-heavy capital) and have finally eclipsed him in tech and have tied up with him in policy count. We both went Freedom and are wayyyyy ahead of the rest of the field in policies.

Also, Hussars are a pretty fun and difficult unit to use well. Their 40CS is really high, especially if you beeline them a bit and they pretty much wreck everything else around including tercios and only start to lose some steam when riflemen arrive. Their 'push back' mechanic is fun to try to use to your advantage. You can put enemy units into range of your other attackers by bouncing them around or solve ZoC issues by moving enemy units strategically. You can also screw yourself if you don't take into account the push back by accidentally putting enemy units out of range or putting your Hussar into a bad spot. I imagine the AI might not handle this mechanic well but in the hands of a human with some planning it can be strong.

Goals now:

1) grab more tourism wonders/techs/buildings and make sure I have as many tourism modifiers with the culture heavy civs (really just Brazil and Persia on my continent). Prioritize science to get to citizen earth ASAP and rely on my free policies to hit 10 in ideology by then.

2) defend my territory as Persia on my continent looks a bit scary

 

[crdvis16]

Last update!

After my war with Brazil I was able to consolidate my winnings and get my empire humming on all cylinders. I soon had a tech lead over the world and was certainly the only game in town when it came to tourism. I also had just enough votes in the world congress to get passport system enacted and protect myself against sanction votes.

My main focus from here on out was getting my tourism to overtake Brazil and Persia who had the largest pools of culture (the other continent was fairly inconsequential this game and in fact, Persia conquered roughly 1/3rd of it before the game was over). I easily hit the "get 2 tier3 tenets" requirement for a culture victory by roughly turn 350ish or so but achieving influential with Brazil/Persia was the tougher part as Poland has no real innate tourism generation advantages. I targeted them each with as many trade routes as I could, used my spies as thieves to steal additional great works, and beelined to the most important late game tourism techs. It took until turn 412 before I was able to finally get influential and finish off the culture victory wonder and by then I think I had 14 tenets in Freedom. Persia kept the late game interesting by DoWing me twice with the second war going nuclear.

Overall, a culture victory with Poland definitely seems limited by tourism as the policy requirement largely takes care of itself. I was lucky that Brazil was my immediate neighbor and wonder spammer whom I could conquer. If Brazil had been wonder spamming like that on a different continent things would have been very difficult for me.

 

[andersw]

One of the more OP things as I recall with Hussars is that you can push units out of cities, it is then left wo a garrison and easy pickings.
Its also very good for breaking melee/archery lines.