Polarizing Polynesia

[seancolorado]

truenarnian pointed out that people seem to either love playing with Polynesia or hate them.

I wanted to dissect this civ a little more to find out why the gap is so wide, so tell me: Do you love them or hate them?

If you love them, why is that? And if you don't?

Myself, I'm Polynesia's biggest supporter. I don't even think they are the strongest, but by no means are they weak. I often discuss them here and there but I wanted to gather all of the opinions in one thread. I have to get ready to work right now but when I get back on the computer I'll get into why I personally find them both fun and effective, even though I acknowledge that they are not geared for everybody.

 

[Princeofnigeria]

As you can tell from all my threads, I love the polynesians! They have a highly adaptable ability and a very strong pre renniassance game, as the only naval power able to cross into ocean, allowig for easy unstopable sneak attacks, whereby if ANYTHING goes wrong you pretty much have a "get out of jail free" card and can move back into the ocean and be invincible (I like to imagine the sailors laughing and flipping the enemy off as they sit ten feet away but completely untouchable). I also don't believe their unfocused, as the pieces all seem to make sense to me: 1. Found coastal capital 2. Explore the ocean in depth late ancient. 3. Found as many cities as possible on foreign shores, giving you maoi culture, trade routes, and a line between which people can't pass through without your consent (lots of political power in that) 4. After 4 or so cities (one on every major continent) build lots of navy and puppet a few inland cities for a meat sheild 5. All important cities have a 20% defense bonus near them from moai and maori. 6turtle tall culture.
And the best part is that if they fon't wanna do this, they can easily do something else. Not lack of focus, ADAPTABILITY. I hate naval sides, and Poly is still my number 2 favorite (get defenders of the faith And your the best turtle out of any of them!)

 

[Souka]

I love Polynesia because they offer a kind of play nobody really can offer. Of course, they require you adjust your setting to them (nobody would ever play Polynesia on a Great Plain map) but then the game will resemble nothing else, provided you don't only focus on exploring the oceans, but also build an early force and moais.

I think it really depends on the way each player enjoy Civ. I consider myself a non serious player, only playing at difficulties between Prince and Emperor according to the mood.
Because of that, I try to change of civilization every game, and play them the way they seem to have been designed (science, domination, culture, diplomacy, religious, commerce), so I adapt to them instead of the other way around. I don't dislike any of these play styles, so except for India, all civilizations are fine in my book, and the more distinct, the better.

I suppose a more dedicated player wanting to shoot for high difficulties and with precise strategies for a specific victory condition would be put off by the Polynesians, who don't excel in much except exploration (but you don't win a game with only that) and early warfare (somehow) and culture (even though the Moai come at a high price for the little culture they provide).
They are not optimal at all, but they are much more fun and unique than a civilization who simply gives you a slightly better basic building and a slightly higher rate of something else. They don't specialize in anything but rather offer a lot of sub-par tools, which all have to be used to win. For example, they are the opposite of the Hun's battering ram, which pretty much dictates the way you'll play (very early dominating warfare until victory or obsolescence).

Another reason why I like them is because meeting them on a map changes a lot of things. While meeting Montezuma or Alex means you're going to war soon, even if they are on the other side of the map, or meeting Sejong or Gandhi next to your borders means peaceful coexistence most of the time, meeting Kamehameha randomizes the whole diplomacy game, especially if he's far away from you. Since he's probably going to have met all the civilizations by turn 50, he will have diplomatic ties with everyone, both good and bad, and each civilization will have the opportunity to ally or denounce him, not knowing how other unknown civilizations will react to it. It also grants him a sort of semi-immunity, since you cannot kill him completely without being labelled a warmonger by absolutely everyone, including people you've never met.

So, yeah, Polynesia is my favourite oddball civilization of the game. Go Kamehameha !

 

[Petiscator]

I'll be the first to say this: I hate Polynesia.

First, I dislike that they are tied to a single map type. Pick archipellago or tiny islands and they are great, but go on a pangea/continents. Sure, it can help 1% with exploration on pangea and you will meet other civs earlier on continents, but that isn't enough for me. The moai bonus is purely defensive on a civ that should expand on a water heavy map. The Moai by itself might be good on a really specific type of land, but they ocupy the space where a good farm/mine/trading post/plantation/camp/quarry should be, more often than not being much less rewarding. The Maori Warrior is even worse: the 10% is nice, but it is only that. African Forest Elephants have that and much more, the Jaguars, which replace the same unit, are much better, so the Maori Warrior, for me, sucks. Ok, it carries on upgrades, but it is still a minimal bonus. It is even worse that, as a UU, you would want to build a lot of them, so you lose money and time building ~5 Maori Warriors and BOOM! They suck!

The scheme color, for me, is bad. It is too much vibrating. I also dislike the civ's flavor and the music. The music is too calm and I dislike it a lot, even the city names bother me, as most of them are islands' names, and Kamehameha bothers me aswell: when I meet him, right after Alexander decides to hate me, he thinks it is a good idea to denounce me because I'm on the other continent and he should get involved in situations that are not of his business. I hate it, hate it, hate it. I have to admit, though, that getting to the ocean is fun on a water map, and quite cool on a Terra map, but for me it sucks on most map types.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

i like being them but they're not very good at all.

 

[Princeofnigeria]

I'll be the first to say this: I hate Polynesia.

First, I dislike that they are tied to a single map type. Pick archipellago or tiny islands and they are great, but go on a pangea/continents. Sure, it can help 1% with exploration on pangea and you will meet other civs earlier on continents, but that isn't enough for me. The moai bonus is purely defensive on a civ that should expand on a water heavy map. The Moai by itself might be good on a really specific type of land, but they ocupy the space where a good farm/mine/trading post/plantation/camp/quarry should be, more often than not being much less rewarding. The Maori Warrior is even worse: the 10% is nice, but it is only that. African Forest Elephants have that and much more, the Jaguars, which replace the same unit, are much better, so the Maori Warrior, for me, sucks. Ok, it carries on upgrades, but it is still a minimal bonus. It is even worse that, as a UU, you would want to build a lot of them, so you lose money and time building ~5 Maori Warriors and BOOM! They suck!

The scheme color, fore me, is bad. It is too much vibrating. I also dislike the civ's flavor and the music. The music is too calm and I dislike it a lot, even the city names bother me, as most of them are islands' names, and Kamehameha bothers me aswell: when I meet him, right after Alexander decides to hate me, he thinks it is a good idea to denounce me because I'm on the other continent and he should get involved in situations that are not of his business. I hate it, hate it, hate it. I have to admit, though, that getting to the ocean is fun on a water map, and quite cool on a Terra map, but for me it sucks on most map types.

I think your underestimatig the power of the earth: it is round. On a pangea you can circle around the earth and quickly and attack when they least expect it, and use the MOAI to make your conquered lands very hard to take. And I play almost exclusively on continents, and every game I've played with them has been on continents (except for their scenario) so all my love and tactics that I talk about for the polynesians go to them on cntinents, as the "capture inland cities as a buffer zone to protect your important cities" would indicate. I don't like arcipelago: no room to expand and no roads, and I always feel OP and bored to death. I used to seriously hate there war theme, but the more I listened to it, the more I liked it (cuz the lulls before the 2:00 super cluster F*** of awesome remind me of sneak attacks, how I LOVE to use these culture monsters.

 

[kaspergm]

I like the idea behind Polynesia, but I find it a real let-down that Moai pretty much suck imo. Extra culture is nice, but it isn't that attractive in early game - where it would really matter - when you lose out on food on that account. Also, Maori Warriors are not that great, and I don't think the special ability carries over, no?

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I like the idea behind Polynesia, but I find it a real let-down that Moai pretty much suck imo. Extra culture is nice, but it isn't that attractive in early game - where it would really matter - when you lose out on food on that account. Also, Maori Warriors are not that great, and I don't think the special ability carries over, no?

Yeah, the Moai should give you another food, or another production or religion or . . . something? You need to build things and grow cities at that point.

 

[Petiscator]

Ok, circling the earth is a nice strategy, but it takes a lot of time, specially when your units still have 2 embarked movement. It is preferable to attack the neighbours than people on the other side of the planet which don't hate you - yet - and can turn into trade partners. For the moai bonus to work, you will have to bring some workers together with the army, and it would take even more turns of production. Not only that, 10% bonus is actually really minor and won't make the lands REALLY hard to take, just slightly more difficult. I prefer their war theme, but yet, I hate them both. I understand its power, but for me it is underwhelming, if compared to most civs out there. There are worst civs, though. Also, the circling earth strategy won't work that well on continents: ok if you are willing to attack the closest offshore civ, but if you want to circle the earth to attack your enemies on the oposite side of your continent, you will have to go around continent 2, which would take much more time.

 

[bcaiko]

I like that Polynesia brings something new to the game. I'm always in favor of that. They force the player to think differently, and that's good for a strategy game. The OP is correct in saying they don't suck. In fact, I'm impressed that at this point no Civ absolutely sucks. There's arguement to be had that some Civs are better than others overall, but there's no clear God tier and Z list tier. That's certainly to the developers' credit.

First, I dislike that they are tied to a single map type. Pick archipellago or tiny islands and they are great, but go on a pangea/continents. Sure, it can help 1% with exploration on pangea and you will meet other civs earlier on continents, but that isn't enough for me. The moai bonus is purely defensive on a civ that should expand on a water heavy map. ...

The fairest way to evaluate any Civ is on Continents, and on that map Polynesia does just fine (so long as their starting bias is left on). Pressing their exploration advantage means they'll get early trading, science and happiness benefits, and they can easily settle some of the choice spots that other Civs couldn't possibly get to until later in the game. Maori warriors and Moai lead to a strong defensive game, which is good when going for a tall, cultural victory (which Polynesia seems to be biased towards).

Yeah, Polynesia isn't the best warmonger. (Though, ocean-faring Ironclads pre G&K were no joke. Do Polynesian Ironclads treat ocean tiles as coast? That would be sick.) But that's not what they're built to do. And that's fine. Not everyone is the Huns. And frankly, I think Polynesia has more versitility than some of the warmonger Civs.

 

[Smokeybear]

Yeah, the Moai should give you another food, or another production or religion or . . . something? You need to build things and grow cities at that point.

UB: Tourist Luau- plus food and happiness

 

[Petiscator]

I agree with its trading bonuses on continents (as I said, they meet other civs earlier), but it still isn't enough for me. I'm not a warmongerer player - normally - and I usually adapt myself to the civ, but Polynesia is not my cup of tea. They get a bonus for exploration and for settling places while they should keep themselves tall: that is what annoys me the most, probably. That's just my opinion, though, and I probably won't change my mind. It is also not because they aren't very strong (which is my opinion: if I were to make a list of civs base on my opinion on their strenghts, Polynesia would be for sure in my top 10 worse civs - for me there are much better bonuses than theirs), but because I dislike the civ overall: the music, the leader screen, the AI, the flavour, the UU/UI and even the city names. But specially the music, and that is an important part for me.

 

[Princeofnigeria]

Ok, circling the earth is a nice strategy, but it takes a lot of time, specially when your units still have 2 embarked movement. It is preferable to attack the neighbours than people on the other side of the planet which don't hate you - yet - and can turn into trade partners. For the moai bonus to work, you will have to bring some workers together with the army, and it would take even more turns of production. Not only that, 10% bonus is actually really minor and won't make the lands REALLY hard to take, just slightly more difficult. I prefer their war theme, but yet, I hate them both. I understand its power, but for me it is underwhelming, if compared to most civs out there. There are worst civs, though. Also, the circling earth strategy won't work that well on continents: ok if you are willing to attack the closest offshore civ, but if you want to circle the earth to attack your enemies on the oposite side of your continent, you will have to go around continent 2, which would take much more time.

No, circling earth with triremes!!! And gallaes! Infantry are just to hold the line... And the promotion does carry...

 

[Gucumatz]

You need scouts/maoris whatever though to pick up ruins. So you will have land units going t hrough the waters too

 

[whyidie]

I like that Polynesia brings something new to the game. I'm always in favor of that. They force the player to think differently, and that's good for a strategy game.

Bold for emphasis as it highlights my struggle with Polynesia. I wanted them to be a Civ that would allow me to settle away from all the maddness on the continent and build my utopian paradise far away from the struggles on the mainland. I haven't been able to do this with them. Maps are an issue. The fact I've been playing predominantly random rolls is a big factor as I have yet to roll a map with an unpopulated continent.

The other problem with my "want" is just the nature of the way the game plays. If you don't settle the city quickly, your second capitol will come too late.

So yes, maybe its largely my expectations not being inline with how they were intended to be used. With that being said, enjoying the insight from those who know how to use them.

 

[bcaiko]

...It is also not because they aren't very strong (which is my opinion: if I were to make a list of civs base on my opinion on their strenghts, Polynesia would be for sure in my top 10 worse civs - for me there are much better bonuses than theirs), but because I dislike the civ overall: the music, the leader screen, the AI, the flavour, the UU/UI and even the city names. But specially the music, and that is an important part for me.

I wouldn't argue too loudly over someone putting them in the bottom half of Civs, but that's true of most of the cast. Like I said, I think most of the Civs are fairly well balanced with each other.

The music fits the Civ, but whether or not you dig the music is totally your personal tastes.

 

[kaspergm]

And the promotion does carry...

Ok that's good at least. I think if Moai were build upon another improvement, and not instead of another improvement (similar to how roads work) it would come a long way to make this civ more interesting for me. I wonder if one can mod that ...

 

[whyidie]

Lot of good ideas in the thread so far.

Souka I'll go in with the mentality you spelled out on my next game. Won't be doing a random roll this time. Any ideas on a game setup that will give me a better shot at unsettled and sizeable landmasses ?

Also, would love to see some screenshots of good moai layout or even just screenshots of some good Polynesia city settlements. In another thread someone had a nice screenshot but can't locate it.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I don't care to play as or play with Polynesia. I don't like that they can explore across the oceans early. When I play as them, I feel pressured to explore and expand as early as possible. Unfortunately, I feel like I am doing so at the expense of settling and defending my "homeland" territory.

A don't like playing with them because they explore the whole world before me. I don't like that they can grab the ruins before me, but that's petty. What really bugs me is that they find me and either like me or don't, then they go meet all the other civs, my neighbors opinion of me affects Polynesia, and the longstanding Polynesian opinion of me affects how the rest of the world treats me when I meet them for the first time. It doesn't allow me to make good first impressions when I start to explore myself. They are also kind of broke in that they hardly expand overseas just like the other civs currently don't, but that's pretty much their thing; you know, spreading out across oceans. Hopefully they are a lot better about it in this new patch.

 

[Petiscator]

Yes, they are a bottom half for me. Every civ has its balance, that's right, but I find Polynesia lackluster. The UU gets just a minor bonus and has to be massively produced to be effective in some way, which could hurt your economy; the UI is really situation and more often than not, not as rewarding as another improvement which could get you a luxury (when I play Polynesia my chains of moais get broken by a dumb copper standing in the coast, and I prefer getting the luxury); the UA is really good for water maps, but for pangea and continents it gets reduced - there are no ruins for the Maoris to take on the sea, on these maps it is better to explore the surroundings rather than crossing the whole world. It also ends in astronomy, when every other civ can mimic your bonus. +1 sight for embarked compliments really well the rest of the UA, but the 10% bonus strenght for the Moai is really minor.

For me Polynesia is not a really strong civ and I don't see why is that a reason to stop an argument. In no particular order, my top half is Carthage, Byzantium, Persia, Inca, Aztecs, Netherlands, Russia, Rome, Siam, Mongolia, Sweden, England, Spain, China, Austria, Maya and Greece. IMO, those civs are much better, overall, than Polynesia, given a standard game (as Continents). On archipelago, though, Polynesia becomes top 3 for me.