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Policy Discussion: Honor

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, Jul 30, 2014.

  1. Gokudo01

    Gokudo01 Emperor

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    People wants to talk about authority, let's talk about authority :D

    hehe I quote myself

    Spoiler :



    ps : I assume my moronic side ;p
     
  2. Atlas627

    Atlas627 Deity

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    I don't see a problem with one of the trees being more of a gamble. I think the ancient trees are currently very well balanced.

    Tradition - Take Tradition if you need specialists or have no room to expand beyond, say, 3 cities. Also consider Tradition if you have bonuses for growth or will actually make good use of all those tiles. If someone nearby has Authority, it may be worth going Tradition because they are going to take your mutual space and may even attack you, and you don't want to waste resources only to get them captured (small is easier to defend)

    Progress - Take Progress if you want to be flexible. Infrastructure helps everyone. If you plan to do a decent amount of expanding or want to do a small bit of conquering, this tree works well. This is basically the default tree if neither of the others is particularly appealing.

    Authority - Take Authority if there's a lot of open space near you, especially if there's a faraway civ. You'll get the most use out of barb clearing and city settling with so much open space, and you can then translate that into military might and conquer some more. Also consider Authority if you intend to go to war early and/or often.


    This seems fine to me. The problem I have with Authority is, as you said, that AIs get buffs from difficulty level that directly translate to less effective Authority: early units and vs barb buffs. In fact, the player even gets a malus vs barbs with each difficulty level! That really sucks, and I miss having units be independent of difficulty. I wish the barb bonus was consistent as well.
     
  3. Gokudo01

    Gokudo01 Emperor

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    I think many people don't like gamble when they are playing a strategic game :)
    I think it could be a possibility to reduce the culture income from barbarian and to give some culture from the numbers of units owned. Because the Authority is built around the fact that you will have many units, we could reward the player for getting and maintaining a big army. The bonus would be good early but police cost would make it insignificant enough so we don't have to balance the mid-game around it.
    Moreover we don't add any local culture so we don't break the balance around tribute.

    Another solution would be giving culture upon finishing to train land units. Good synergy with authority.
    This proposition has got a bad side, it doesn't synergize well with puppet cities.
     
  4. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Let's keep the use of meme images to an absolute minimum, as they cause clutter.

    Authority is getting a buff next patch (Imperialism too, in a way), and Progress is getting a slight tweak:

     
  5. IcyAngel

    IcyAngel Prince

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    Progress has been receiving tons of nerfs lately, and I'm clueless as to why.
    Losing two production in all your cities is more than a "tweak" early game.
     
  6. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    That looks horrible to be honest, pretty much butchering progress, which relies heavily on that production to build buildings which is what the tree is based around.

    I really don't see a good excuse to give Authority 7(or 8, not clear) production in every city, which by itself is insane, and then top it off by buffing most other numbers in the tree.

    EDIT: Fact is, for 7(or 8) production in all cities I would pick Authority every game.
     
  7. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    Funky Kong is right, that's too much. 1 Production could be for every 2 Authority policies, I guess? That'd be 4 per city at full Authority. If opener is reduced to +1Prod+1Gold per city it'd be 3production per city and 2 at about the same time as progress gets its own 2.

    I don't think you need to kick the 2 Prod from Liberty, it wouldn't be that bad if both policy branches had the same thing, except one in a policy and one in opener. If it's still bad that those are the same, perhaps change Equality to +2Gold+1/2Production but have it require a city connection (while still proccing in capital).

    I feel Tradition needs a tiny bump too, maybe +2 yields per capital on policies all up to 3.
     
  8. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    I think the main problem we have is that a lot of people 'feel' too much :D


    Authority might need a bump, absolutely, I'm probably not playing enough Authority to be the best judge of it, but just throwing bigger numbers at things probably isn't the best way to handle that.

    Tradition like progress both seem fine to me, but that's mostly experience, not data.
     
  9. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Sorry, but you are just flat wrong. By the time you get to the end of Authority (which takes longer than the other two branches), 6 production will probably be about 25-40% of your City's production value. By that time, Tradition should have a GP improvement or maybe two (so anywhere from 4-8 extra yields, plus the throne room (+1 to all yields). Progress, meanwhile, has 6 base yields per city extra (science, food, and gold). The rest of the yields in Progress require some kind of investment (culture for border growth, garrisons for happiness/culture, cities for founding, or pop for free units). A flat production bonus is far, far from broken.

    Progress has a % boost to building construction, and bonuses for workers and tile improvements. This is progress's production modifier.

    Edit: post above should have said +1 for opener, +1 for scaler, not +2/+1 (typo).
    G
     
  10. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    It's not just about 6 production being overpowered (and way better than +2 food/gold/science), it is about authority going from 0 to 6 production, while getting two other buffs, and progress getting a massive nerf that pretty much maims the entire tree.

    Also, why would it take longer to fill out authority? The AI usually does it about as quickly as progress. You're getting a massive +3culture per city just 2 policies in.
     
  11. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Rarely, if ever, is an Authority AI the first to get through its branch.

    Progress is not absolutely dependent on that +2 Production. A single Well will make up for it. And, looking at gameplay reports and saves, the vast majority of players are going Progress right now because of the Science. No need for Progress to be the 'do it all' tree.

    I think you're overreacting quite a bit.

    G
     
  12. Forsti

    Forsti Warlord

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    Thanks for the resurrection! :p I already wrote something about authority in the Zulu thread, but I'll continue here.

    From my point of view the biggest problem with authority is the lack of science. There are basically two possible routes in the authority tree, one is taking the left policies first, the other one is rushing to discipline, then returning to the left policies and finally taking honor. Neither can match progress.

    If you decide to take the scientific path, you'll start to get science when you get your second policy and choose dominance. The amount of culture varies depending on the combat strenght of the opponent, but on standard speed you'd get 6 science for killing an archer and 7 science for killing a brute, hand-axe or warrior. If you want to match the science output of the progress opener, which can be obtained earlier, you'd have to kill 3-4 units in the time it takes the progress player to grow his/her capital. This is hardly possible even in the best case scenario and even then the progress player gets his initial science earlier, which means that you should somehow catch up his advantage. The third tech grants you more science in the form of imperium. 25 science for each city you settle is, however, quite meaningless and once again, this can be compared to progress. Fraternity can be obtained as the third tech of progress and it grants 2 science for each city connection. The first one actually grants 4 science, as it gives the city connection to the capital too. It takes progress just 13 turns of city connection to overtake the science output of imperium. This is all science these trees get and progress gets so much more of it. At this point you realize that you have chosen your policies based on science but progress still has the edge. You have also neglected culture by not rushing dominance and it will take you ages to fill the tree. You don't even have a policy that would increase your food or production output.

    If you, on the other hand, decide to take tribute and discipline first, you won't get any extra science before your fourth policy. This means falling scientifically far behind progress. One could argue that tradition has the same problem, but with tradition you can reach the fourth policy a lot faster, you get a lot more science there and you also get faster growth in the capital, which helps a bit with science. Rushing discipline means that you can perhaps keep up with progress culturally, but progress has a massive science advantage when you are at the stage where you can actually conquer cities, meaning that with progress you could have started the war earlier and would have faced less advanced units. In the end you can see that you have two options with authority: being culturally and scientifically behind progress or being somewhat equal to progress culturally and being massively behind scientifically. Neither sounds good.

    Another issue with authority is that you can't conquer cities in ancient era and doing it in classical era requires catapults, which means that you must have iron. If you don't have siege units, it can take you more than 30 turns to take the city on ancient or classical era, even if your opponent doesn't have any military other than a garrison. Ordering a military unit to attack a city with walls or a garrison is a suicide even if the city had a very low population and wasn't built on a hill. Dromons might help, but even then it only helps if both you and your opponent have a coastal city. As a result, early war isn't really a viable possibility (unless you are Montezuma and only want a peace deal). With progress you can reach medieval era a lot faster than with authority, and that is when (I think) it gets easier to take cities.
     
  13. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Then get rid of the science?

    Progress theme was infrastructure, and getting rid of their only early-game source of production is going to kill infrastructure.

    A well does not make up for that +2 production until you've reached pop 5 and put 70 hammers into it, not to mention that a well is not even buildable in around 70% of all cities.
    Also the whole "making up for" doesn't make any sense, progress was about using your extra production get get your production-buildings up faster and then build the rest of the cities, a well does not make up for anything as you would have the well anyways.


    Also I'm not really sure what you're going with here, last patch you delivered a nerf to Imperium and now you want to massively buff the entire tree.
     
  14. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    I didn't nerf Imperium last patch - actually buffed it.

    I can compromise on Progress, sure. The flat production in Authority, however, is staying. Authority AI is competitive again, and it's a big incentive even for non-warmonger players.

    G
     
  15. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    You removed 50 yields from it. Whats worse is that you cut half the useful local yields from it, culture gives you border-expansions which gives you food and production which snowballs the city. Science does absolutely nothing for the newly settled city.

    By the time you start conquering GAP is a lot more valuable than science.

    So no, I don't believe you buffed it.

    I imagine anyone would be competitive with +6 production in all cities, I mean with that much production you can pretty much do anything.
     
  16. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Agree to disagree on first point. On second point, it is now Authority's only consistent yield per turn. It's a fair buff relative to the passive yields of Progress/Tradition.

    G
     
  17. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    What about the +3 culture from discipline?
     
  18. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Requires a garrison, which is not always feasible in the early game (and is a drain on GPT). So it's not guaranteed. In any case, I'll probably be dropping it to +2 to compensate for the production bump and the buffs to instant yields.

    G
     
  19. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    You know what? I just don't care anymore, just save a backup of the old trees so you can go back to them after you've released this and people mob up on you.
     
  20. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Gosh you're salty over this change. Chill out, man.

    G
     

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