Policy Discussion: Liberty

Cites start at higher pop was a completely different thing, it promoted early expansion and getting your city up to speed slightly faster.

Which to me was the problem...right now we have moved the "expansion" characteristics more towards honor. Liberty is the "develop your current civ" tree
 
You could add the border growth "bonus" (the effect you get when the border expands) to Representation.

I have started my own personal campaign to get that effect in honor. For some reason, I just fell in love with that concept for honor. To me it fits the "expand anywhere anyhow" theme of our new honor like a glove.
 
I have started my own personal campaign to get that effect in honor. For some reason, I just fell in love with that concept for honor. To me it fits the "expand anywhere anyhow" theme of our new honor like a glove.

Personal campaigns never work out for some reason ^^

Wouldn't say it has much synergy with honor at all, honor doesn't have any borderexpansion bonus (or local culture) at all.
 
Personal campaigns never work out for some reason ^^

Wouldn't say it has much synergy with honor at all, honor doesn't have any borderexpansion bonus (or local culture) at all.

That food bonus is tradition is due to your own personal campaign!

And honor doesn't have a border expansion bonus....until now!
 
That food bonus is tradition is due to your own personal campaign!

And honor doesn't have a border expansion bonus....until now!

I wanted %based food in tradtion, not that. That was your idea, I only went with it because the alternative was 2 food and a pat on the back.

And honor still doesn't have a bonus actually helping them expand their borders =D
 
Liberty V1.7


Opener: Receive 5 Culture every time you construct a Building or research a Technology. +3% Production bonus toward constructing Buildings in all Cities for every Liberty policy taken.

Free Labor: A free worker appears near your Capital. +25% tile improvement.

Civil Engineers: +1 Production in all Cities. Road and Railroad maintenance reduced by 50%.

Meritocracy: When you expend a Great Person, receive Golden Age Points equal to 20% of the points needed for your next Golden Age, and Science equal to your current Science output.

City Planning: All existing cities receive +1 Citizen, and newly founded cities begin with an additional Citizen. Requires Civil Engineers.

Representation: 1 happiness for every 10 citizens in your empire. +1 movement to Workers to Settlers. Requires Free Labor.

Finisher: Receive a Free Great Person of your choice. Great Engineers can be purchased with faith starting in the Industrial Era.


Any strong objections to this tree? (Note I put in some prereqs, I did change the prereq structure of the tree a bit).

I know Funak got some concerns about an all civ pop bonus. Gazebo had some border growth ideas (which I have put into honor, would love more feedback on that in that thread).

As I said before, its no ones perfect tree, but is it enough that we can give this a shot in playtesting?
 
A bit of structional weirdness I don't feel like production in all cities fit very well with cheaper roads.

One suggestion would be placing tileimprovement and roadmaintenance in the same policy.
Place the free worker (if we want to keep it, still think free stuff is boring) with the worker movespeed.
Place the production with the happiness from citizens (which I'm not too sure about either)

And I still think cityplanning is a badly designed policy but I can't think of a decent replacement right now so I'll let it slip.
 
I know Funak got some concerns about an all civ pop bonus.
We could solve that by just giving one-time flat food.

Apart from that concern (which I don't really share), I think it's time to actually go testing... :)
 
A bit of structional weirdness I don't feel like production in all cities fit very well with cheaper roads.

We could make it +1 production per CONNECTED city...which would tie than in more. It would also delay the power of that +1 hammer a little bit, since the building percentage is now stronger than it was in base liberty.
 
We could solve that by just giving one-time flat food.

I think now we are back to the numbers game...how much "free food" (which this policy effectively is) do we provide?

I say we leave the pop in for the playtest. If its too strong, or favors existing cities too heavily...I think your proposal makes great sense to knock it down a peg
 
We could make it +1 production per CONNECTED city...which would tie than in more. It would also delay the power of that +1 hammer a little bit, since the building percentage is now stronger than it was in base liberty.
I like it as well. Rewards having infrastructure, too, and I'm fairly keen on the "trees reward play style" thing.
 
Liberty V1.8


Opener: Receive 5 Culture every time you construct a Building or research a Technology. +3% Production bonus toward constructing Buildings in all Cities for every Liberty policy taken.

Free Labor: A free worker appears near your Capital. +25% tile improvement.

Civil Engineers: +1 Production in connected cities. Road and Railroad maintenance reduced by 50%.

Meritocracy: When you expend a Great Person, receive Golden Age Points equal to 20% of the points needed for your next Golden Age, and Science equal to your current Science output.

City Planning: All existing cities receive +1 Citizen, and newly founded cities begin with an additional Citizen. Requires Civil Engineers.

Representation: 1 happiness for every 10 citizens in your empire. +1 movement to Workers and Settlers. Requires Free Labor.

Finisher: Receive a Free Great Person of your choice. Great Engineers can be purchased with faith starting in the Industrial Era.
 
Looks good to go to test it as is then.
 
Alright, I've heard a lot of general agreement...or at least "eh...good enough"


So...I think we can say we finally have one working tree ready to go!


Gazebo....HAZZZZZAHHH!!!
 
Hey, hold your horses there cowboy. Too many discussions going on and it's hard to give the due focus any of them deserves (people here are getting really impatient, which is dangerous when we're treading new grounds).

It's been a short while since I've had a take on this, and I'm really worried about how people insist to lead this more and more into "expansion" grounds, when there has been a reasonable amount of agreement that this is supposed to be the neutral infrastucture tree, and after I made a pretty solid argument for "peaceful expansion" being a weak theme. Not only that, the fact that Wide is already a competitively better strategy makes creating yet another expansion tree a shot in the foot in this regard.

I also dislike this whole "every policy taken gives you more of this" thing, for reasons I've stated more than a couple times before. There's no need to artificially encourage people to go all the way to the end of a tree, and I don't like having a policy that says "this only operates at 100% levels when you have all policies in this tree".

I'm gonna cook up another iteration soon (coming up with them takes a reasonable amount of time so I can't do this right now).
 
I do see your arguments and I do believe you have some very true observations on "wide peaceful". And given the current trees, I would probably dip into a few before finishing one.

But as has been pointed out, the proposals are not revolutionary, but they're a good basis, recognizable to new players of the mod and still sufficiently different. We already give the new happiness system to mule over for new players, so it may be better for the policy trees to be "understandable on first look".

Having said that, I'd really like to try out how the settler in the honor tree will influence AI conquerors. Playtesting will help us much more than anything else.

And again, Civilization: Beyond Earth is looming and will take a lot of interest away from this. Let's have a playble thing out by then (Policies, Leaders, Religion, Buildings, Victory Conditions rebalanced, Espionage).
 
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