Polish gameplay article - some new info

[chaosprophet]

I don't think that's how it works, unless I'm interpreting the demo video wrong. The way I think it works (based on the comment above) is that the cost of research will be half, but your current research isn't halved.

So, say a tech costs 50 and you have 30 science in it. Then, if you get the Eureka Moment, the cost goes down to 25 and your 30 science will complete the tech.

That seems to be the case according to the gameplay video, as both Writing and Military Tradition, who were a bit over half, gets instantly completed when the eureka is achieved.

 

[m15a]

The B-Roll the peopel got indicates that completing a Eureka moment ADDS 50% of the research/culture into the tech.

When the video met Teddy, he researched Writing afterwards, without a turn change, indicating that the bonus is just a lump sum of research/culture into that tech.

Does what is shown in the video disprove the scenario I described in the post above (second paragraph)? I was actually basing my example off what I thought I saw in the video, but I might have missed a detail.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

Does what is shown in the video disprove the scenario I described in the post above (second paragraph)? I was actually basing my example off what I thought I saw in the video, but I might have missed a detail.

Hard to say.

But.. I dunno, to me it seems a lot easier to code the game to give you a bonus rather than to change the price of the item.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

The difference is in overflow.
If you have researched 90% of a tech and get a Eureka... do you get a 40% of that research for another tech?
If the Eureka is done differently than simple lump sum, it would be easier to have 0 overflow.

 

[AriochIV]

Since a Eureka boost is clearly for that tech only, there shouldn't be any overflow.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Since a Eureka boost is clearly for that tech only, there shouldn't be any overflow.

Eureka could be gotten in the middle of research. Say you have 70% already research and get Eureka. I think in this case you'll need to have overflow.

 

[Ryika]

Well, that depends on how the system is implemented. In Civ 5 and BE if you use lua to add progress towards a tech that you're currently researching, pushing you past 100% you get overflow science if I'm not completely misremembering things, simply because when a tech finishes researching the game just compares the total science put into that tech and uses that to calculate the overflow.

Of course it can simply coded differently to take into account situations where overflow is generated be an Eureka. But that's true for both variants.

An alternative way is to to just re-evaluate your total progress on a tech in Percent. If a Tech costs 1000 Science and you already have 400 when you achieve the Eureka you then have 200 Science and the cost is now 500.

That way you completely avoid any situation where overflow could be created. In a way it's a bit of a compromise between the two extremes as you'll not be able to carry over massive amounts of overflow but at the same time "lose" a lot less production than you would if overflow created by an Eureka just vanished into thin air.

 

[spfun]

No overflow. I think it will act like this, 1000 cost tech and your 400 into it, eureka gives you 500 extra science now you have 900. 1000 cost tech and you have 600 science, eureka gives you the tech immediately.

 

[AriochIV]

Eureka could be gotten in the middle of research. Say you have 70% already research and get Eureka. I think in this case you'll need to have overflow.

You don't need to have overflow; the excess boost is lost.

The boost is specifically related to the tech in question; it should not apply to the next tech. If you get a boost for Sailing and your next tech is Horseback Riding, that doesn't make any sense.

 

[Red Pearl]

The boost is specifically related to the tech in question; it should not apply to the next tech. If you get a boost for Sailing and your next tech is Horseback Riding, that doesn't make any sense.

I agree that it would be unrealistic for the overflow to go to Horseback Riding. But if there is no overflow then I would do say 43% of sailing, then switch to Horseback Riding and get 27% plus the Eureka for sailing, and then switch back to finish sailing. If there is no overflow it would add unnecessary micromanagement.

 

[Infantry#14]

Does the AI understands/beelines the Eureka moments? I feel that humans with pre-knowledge of these Eureka moments will easily surpass the AI on techs.

 

[Liex]

Do the Eureka moments trigger retroactively? For instance, the trigger for Writing is to meet another civilization. If I met a civilization 1 turn before I started researching Writing, does it count?

 

[spfun]

I agree that it would be unrealistic for the overflow to go to Horseback Riding. But if there is no overflow then I would do say 43% of sailing, then switch to Horseback Riding and get 27% plus the Eureka for sailing, and then switch back to finish sailing. If there is no overflow it would add unnecessary micromanagement.

No tech switching would solve that problem.

 

[stealth_nsk]

You don't need to have overflow; the excess boost is lost.

The boost is specifically related to the tech in question; it should not apply to the next tech. If you get a boost for Sailing and your next tech is Horseback Riding, that doesn't make any sense.

It depends on the actual mechanic. If we consider eureka to be reduced tech cost, things are different. Let's say we gathered 70 beacons for 100-beacon tech and got eureka. In this case we discover tech with 20 beacon overflow.

The key point is - we already have overflow mechanic in Civ5 and likely in Civ 6 for regular discovery (i.e. if you generate 15 beacons for 100-beakon tech, you get 105 beacon on 7-th turn and 5 beacons overflow, that's approach to avoid micromanagement used in early civ versions). So if we consider eureka to be reduced cost, we have full overflow.

However, if we consider eureka as double output, things become messy. Let's say we produce 10 beacons per turn and made 90 of 100 for the tech gaining eureka in process. Now we get our 20 beacons and 10 beacons overflow, but they are "boosted", so should the next tech get 10 or 5? Not very intuitive.

EDIT:

No tech switching would solve that problem.

A piece of bad design The system should be designed to not get any benefits from micromanagement, not just prohibiting actions which could lead to it.

 

[kaspergm]

From everything we've read about Eureka's, it seems very likely that there will be no overflow. Most notably all sources seem quite explicit about the fact that the Eureka can give you "up to 50 % of the tech cost".

 

[spfun]

No tech switching, would you miss it?

I can't think of a reason other than to exploit bad gameplay mechanics like bulbing/free techs/micromanage overflow etc... Why would you partly learn techs instead of fully researching techs and getting the reward faster?

We have different definitions of bad game design.

 

[chaosprophet]

No tech switching, would you miss it?

I can't think of a reason other than to exploit bad gameplay mechanics like bulbing/free techs/micromanage overflow etc... Why would you partly learn techs instead of fully researching techs and getting the reward faster?

We have different definitions of bad game design.

Rather than no tech switching, there may be just that when you switch, you lose all progress on a research, only keeping the halved cost by the eureka. So you need to plan more which tech to research, and switching becomes something you do in emergency situations where it becomes important to finish a different tech ASAP.

 

[Seek]

No tech switching, would you miss it?

I can't think of a reason other than to exploit bad gameplay mechanics like bulbing/free techs/micromanage overflow etc... Why would you partly learn techs instead of fully researching techs and getting the reward faster?

We have different definitions of bad game design.

Tech switching is absolutely necessary: what if you misclick? What if your neighbor is Zulu and is amassing a huge army and the only way you can see defending yourself is by by going xbows but it's a 10-turn tech, but then Shaka attacks someone else? - might as well go education instead. Or England just got SotLs, might want to start catching up on naval techs before it's too late - so much for your Radio beeline! Or you realize nobody has Currency so it might be worth a Petra gambit rather than getting Philosophy first. Or vise versa - you're halfway through a deep tech attempting a wonder gambit and the wonder gets built, don't want to be stuck teching it for another six turns when it's otherwise useless. Etc, etc.

Point is, turns/time is a resource in civ and one must be able to manage it to play effectively.

 

[Wizard-Bob]

But you couldn't just decide to follow "the same strategy" because the boosts you get in different games will be different. One game you'll get the writing boost early and the sailing boost late, one game you'll get the military boosts early and some other game you'll get culture boosts early. So optimal strategy will depend a lot on the situation you find yourself in.

Agreed, and I am looking forward to this!

 

[spfun]

Tech switching is absolutely necessary: what if you misclick? What if your neighbor is Zulu and is amassing a huge army and the only way you can see defending yourself is by by going xbows but it's a 10-turn tech, but then Shaka attacks someone else? - might as well go education instead. Or England just got SotLs, might want to start catching up on naval techs before it's too late - so much for your Radio beeline! Or you realize nobody has Currency so it might be worth a Petra gambit rather than getting Philosophy first. Or vise versa - you're halfway through a deep tech attempting a wonder gambit and the wonder gets built, don't want to be stuck teching it for another six turns when it's otherwise useless. Etc, etc.

Point is, turns/time is a resource in civ and one must be able to manage it to play effectively.

Never had any reason to do an emergency tech switch. Though I guess a misclick is a good reason for having tech switching not that its been a problem I've ever encountered.