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Political Correctness and Civ VI

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by True_Candyman, Jan 23, 2018.

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  1. GoodSarmatian

    GoodSarmatian Blackpilled Idealist

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    I'm not saying that democracies are more warlike than other systems, but they aren't significantly more peaceful either.
    The lack of warfare on Europe since WW2 is often brought up as a datapoint, but the problem here is that due to the cold war most democracies were (and still are) allied. Even then, France and the UK didn't simply give up their old colonies and didn't shy away from violence.
    Anyway, my beef is more with the older governments than with modern democracies. The Greeks, the Romans, the Italian city states etc.
    I don't see why Classical Republic has no military policies and Autocracy has two, but no diplomacy slot, or why Communism has two more military slots than Democracy and the useless-for-peaceful play defendise strength bonus. They changed the last one to a production boost, which is a good start, but I think they should also change one military to an economic slot, after all Communism is more about state control of the economy than about warfare.
     
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  2. Pythakoreas

    Pythakoreas Chef Tain

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    Communism is a lot more obsessed with militarization than democracy. Basically the Soviet Union competed at United States' level in the world of military and lagged behind in everything else.

    One of the reasons why the current world sees more peace than in the past, is that democracies don't like to kill each other. However, democracies still wage wars against autocracies. In the past there were more autocracies than democracies, so we might imagine how the Romans and the British felt about their peculiar government system. On top of that, it was a world where human rights or even nationalism were strange ideas.
     
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  3. MooFreaky

    MooFreaky Meatbag Destroyer

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    In the end the game is about making generalisations. It is taking well known forms of government and giving the most basic stereotypical ways it would/should/could function. It is to provide distinction from a gameplay mechanic. And, to be fair, it does a reasonable job considering how complex governments and such can be. You can play a Classical Republic who is a warmonger, but they get more benefit to their warfare by being a Classical Republic because they can take advantage of their policies so well. And, historically, it is a whole boatload of circumstances that dictate how these things work together. For example, the early Romans were very militaristic, but in many ways their Governmental systems were so counter to this and hampered their ability to wage war effectively because their economic factors were so strong and well used.

    Plus systems of government just don't fall into nice, neat divides like they do in the game. Compare USA to Sweden and you have two democratic, free markets but that operate completely differently and would get totally different bonuses if they were being represented in game. Or compare the sole power rule of Syracuse and Sparta, one caused a militaristic existence while the other caused culture and science to flourish (because nothing allows this like a sole ruler who is happy to invest in those causes). There is just on way to get into that level of detail without just being super generic and super stereotypical. Sure things will get missed and that sucks, but it's about game play and options.
     
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  4. GIDS888

    GIDS888 King

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    Whereas the Ginger quota was woefully low previously, I must take issue with the lack of freckles.
     
  5. Goliht

    Goliht Warlord

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    I like how you change this from peoples control to state control like they're different things. State controlled industries are usually cheaper to use. But can also be expensive to run, since they're funded by taxes. Versus common democracy/capitalism where everything is privately controlled and extremely expensive to use.

    One of the more pleasent aspects of a communist/socialist system. Cheap fares.

    The russians actually put the fear of god into america when they put a dog in space.. they were ahead in the space race. And they are also ahead in weapons and many other science and cultural aspects as well. Gymnastics, Swimming, Ballet, Orchestrals.. AK's ease of use and repair.. Just because your government tell you they're evil.. doesn't mean they are.

    The only bad side to irl politics is the claim that other governmental types are always evil. When most are actually a mix.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2018
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  6. Karpius

    Karpius King

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    The only reason the Soviets got a head start on the space race was because so much of their production and research was geared toward the military and nuclear war. America very quickly closed that gap and surpassed. Also, many of their other weapons systems were near direct copies of western designs, though generally a step or two behind. The Soviets were also notorious for stealing all sorts of tech during 80's, and the Putin government still does it today. The Soviets were never really known for 'innovative ideas'.

    Even the culture, such as ballet and opera, were simply hold overs from the Czarist era and promoted by the Soviets as a great national treasure. At the same time, they suppressed as much as possible any western culture that exposed the Soviet people to western ideas.

    Gymnastics? During the 70's and 80's there was much debate about Soviet athletes and how they were more like professionals (at a time when Olympic athletes were supposed to be all amateur and self-sufficient) because they were completely state sponsored. As were most of the athletes from other Eastern Bloc countries.

    There are many reasons the Soviet system fell apart and the many satellite countries broke away. One of the main reasons (besides the more sinister aspects of forced migrations, Gulags and the like) is because it was unsustainable. You can only take from the people for so long and offer no options in return. It was a failed system from the start and only stayed together as long as it did because of brutal intimidation.
     
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  7. Goliht

    Goliht Warlord

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    Towing the party line Karpius.. ;)

    The USSR fell apart because it was bombarded with propaganda about how great democracy was.. and everyone was stealing everyone elses ideas in the 80s. The joke at the time was "Everything is made in Taiwan!" now nothing is made there, it's all made in china.. btw a similar series of events perfected from the 80s and 90s was used on the arabian countries in the last decade.. which is why they all rioted and tried to overthrow their governments. Not that this was an overly bad thing, except when they did, they got no help at all, from all the "free living people". We can tout how great our way of life is, but sometimes I wonder if sacrificing a little freedom for some big brother attitude wouldn't be a better way to go. In the uk they're passing new laws into place to allow the use of drunk tanks and other "oft used communist systems" to get rid of the undesirables. It's funny how the russians are accused of having gulags.. yet we've been using reservations and concentration camps for alot longer.

    That said their way of life seems overly harsh by comparison, but maybe that's more to do with their culture than the way they govern. There's always pros and cons to our way of life and being free isn't really all that free. Anyway, this is getting abit off topic..
     
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  8. DWilson

    DWilson Where am I? What turn is it?

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    We can't assume that propaganda alone was able to bring down the system, when it was the overly controlling and restrictive governments that helped make the propaganda so successful. The USSR caused a lot of it's own problems on that front.
     
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  9. orasis

    orasis Prince Supporter

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    Seondeok's skin color was not changed and it was not her skin color that caused the stir it was her facial structure which true enough did not even look Asian, at all. Tamar looks Caucasian and taking the screens into a photo editor it would seem that her skin tone is the same as the Queen of the Netherlands. The fact that these are cartoons is very relevant, they're digital cartoons and civilization is not a true to history game in the first instance.

    Well they weren't accused... they did have them. But yeah, we're pretty hypocritical. Look at world war 2 and the 'horror' of the German racial laws -realllly??- we had racial laws at the same time and ours were on the books for a LOT longer lol.
     
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  10. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

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    As far as I can see, Seondeok got a slight lightening of her skin color. Tamar would not need to look that much lighter, only somewhat lighter. Right now she looks like one of my tanned American coworkers.

    The Civ leaders aren't cartoons. Some are cartoony caricatures yes, but not all. See Cyrus for example. Each leaderhead represents their respective civilization, and some people get offended rather easily when their leader isn't portrayed as they would like. You can tell people everywhere not to be offended at a cultural representation of a leader, but that won't matter. Maybe Cersei is just "an actress" in the HBO Game of Thrones series, but had they picked someone not matching Cersei's description or character in the books, some fans would be annoyed or even angry. Imagine the reaction, then, when hyper nationalistic people see their nation's leader improperly portrayed. We've seen the aftermath of such controversies already with Civ VI.

    To a certain extent the leaderheads in represent history--they are based and draw upon the popularity and life stories of actual dead leaders. That Mongolia can build the Eiffel Tower in the same game (among other unrealistic or fantastical things) is irrelevant to this discussion. There were clear efforts to represent Genghis Khan as the ruthless capable military leader he was, for example, which clearly draw on his historic reputation.

    To dismiss leaderheads as "cartoons" is to miss the point of where the entire Civ series draws its inspiration from. (It's also inaccurate from a dictionary definition point of view.)
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2018
  11. Guandao

    Guandao Rajah of Minyue and Langkasuka

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    Is your American coworker of European descent?
    Tamar seems stereotypically Mediterranean/or Middle Eastern in skin-tone. I'm not sure if Firaxis knew Georgians today can be fair skinned. Maybe they assumed that Tamar would have this skin-tone because Georgia is in the Middle East?
    I personally think Saladin's skin-tone is too dark for a Kurdish person. And even if he were an Arab, a lot of them have a skin-tone lighter than the in-game representation of Saladin. One of my Saudi classmates had very fair skin.
     
  12. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

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  13. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

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    Yes, and also Caribbean.

    To get back in the topic of political correctness, aspects visual and soundwise (Sejong's voice in Civ V) can have lasting negative impact. These impact the larger context of the game we play. No one would be happy if Elizabeth I was portrayed as a sniveling weak cretin in Civ, and while that doesn't impact the gameplay *as such* it can certainly impact larger societal discussions of gender representation, national representation etc. It might also make the game less financially successful (in the U.K. anyway).

    For future leader representations in Civ VI I can easily see Firaxis treading more carefully. I recall that for V one of the developers had his wife check out Oda Nobunaga's Japanese for any errors. It would make sense for Firaxis to focus more on more historically accurate visuals in light of Roosevelt/Seondeok/Qin/Tamar.
     
  14. Guandao

    Guandao Rajah of Minyue and Langkasuka

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    I guess Sejong's voice actor was pretty bad by Korean standards?
     
  15. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

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    (Warning: Lengthy musings re: political correctness in Seondeok leader choice below.)

    His Korean was accurate enough but his delivery was awful. An analogous example would be Civ V's tinny Elizabeth I. Neither error is politically incorrect as such, but errors in visuals may be.

    They generally got the leaderhead visuals right in V (I was very impressed with Sejong, in everything from his headgear to his robe). But different body shapes, nose sizes, etc for certain leaders have triggered discussions on political incorrectness for Civ VI multiple times before.

    Selection of leaders of course arguably matters even more. Polycast's recent ep discussed the furor over Seondeok's selection, citing an article that seemed to give non-gender related reasons for her being a bad Korean leader. I was miffed they didn't cite the Reddit post that countered each of those points (especially the loss of forty forts cited). Apparently the average Korean was taught about Seondeok's flaws in school, perhaps out of Confucian gender-dislike which biased historical views on Seondeok.

    Firaxis looked at Seondeok's Wikipedia entry and didn't see the forty fort loss mentioned and put her in game thinking they made a good leader choice. Evidently some (misguided) Koreans disagreed (in my view, the fort loss was easily overshadowed by Seondeok's victories in tired and diplomacy but whatever). This was therefore arguably politically incorrect of Firaxis to pick Seondeok to lead Korea. As a Korean I must say that it's not really Firaxis' fault. They can hardly have been aware of the strong inferiority complex built into Koreans who recently have endured war and foreign incursion. That inferiority complex was oddly gendered, with some Koreans whining that the leader choice wasn't male and therefore making Korea itself feel worse (one YouTube user literally cited that in a serious manner to suggest even choosing a female for Korea was problematic).

    I am unsure if Firaxis felt bad about choosing Seondeok (I hope not), but it's clear that people appreciated Seondeok's face lift due to Koreans taking issue with her looking like she was Southeast Asian in the First Look video. So Firaxis has shown willingness to deal with political incorrectness perceptions in a constructive rather than defiant manner. (Similarly they apparently scheduled to meet with Tootoosis to discuss the Poundmaker controversy.)

    Regardless of what some fierce nationalists may say on Facebook or YouTube is to be hoped Firaxis will simply continue picking female leaders they find interesting for Civ VI expansions. It may be "politically correct" but that's not the only reason to have female leaders ingame.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2018
  16. Kwami

    Kwami Emperor

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    Aw, why did you guys have to take a funny topic about gingers and turn it into yet another topic about race and sex? How boring!
     
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  17. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

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  18. Guandao

    Guandao Rajah of Minyue and Langkasuka

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    Well, Robert the Bruce turned out not to be ginger. We still only have Frederick Barbarossa as the only red haired leader in the game. :p
     
  19. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    Where are all the blondes at? :shifty:
    Besides Alexander.
    There's much more blondes in the world than gingers. :p
     
  20. Guandao

    Guandao Rajah of Minyue and Langkasuka

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    I couldn't really tell if Civ6's Alexander was blonde. His hair must be pretty dark blonde.
     
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