Poll: Change St. Basil's Cathedral to Karlstejn

[pineappledan]

Hello,

I have a proposal to change St. Basil's Cathedral to a different wonder that is more fitting for the wonder's theme and time period: Karlstejn Hrad

Seek the truth, hear the truth, learn the truth, love the truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, and defend the truth unto death.
- Jan Hus

Spoiler wonder splash :

I am Not proposing any changes to mechanics, just the art and text for the wonder.

Currently St. Basil's Cathedral gives -5% population required to Reform your Religion, and gives a free Order in the city.

St. Basil's is a 16th century Muscovite Cathedral, so it's out of place in Medieval, and it doesn't really have much to do with Reformations or knightly orders. Also, the Wonder Splash and Quote for St. Basil's are much more strongly associated with the Kremlin, as you would expect, because that is what the vanilla wonder was.

Karlstejn is a beautiful 14th century Czech castle. It is a major tourist attraction today, but it also was an important stronghold during the Hussite Wars, a Protestant uprising 100 years before Martin Luther. Based on its militaristic history a century before what is popularly thought of as the start of the Reformation, it fits well with the idea of reforming earlier and with giving city defensive militaristic bonuses from the free Order.


As for what is to be done with St Basil's / the Kremlin, I am not proposing anything here, but this would free that wonder up as something that could be added later. There isn't a single generally available wonder in Atomic, and the Kremlin could be an option to liven up that era a bit (the only two that exist right now are Bletchley Park and the Pentagon, which are both policy-locked).

 

[KlHannibal2]

You could argue that Russia was behind in development and was still in medieval in the 1500s. Also, most of the Kremlin was built up until the 19th century and not in atomic.

 

[Bruhmoment]

I don't care all that much, to be honest.
Nice art but I'd probably like a mechanic change to it more than aesthetic one.

 

[Amask]

I'm opposed if there isn't a 3D model that you can see on the map.
If there is then I don't care.

 

[pineappledan]

There is no 3D model. But there are lots of wonders that don’t have 3D models, so I don’t see how that would be disqualifying.

this isn’t about a mechanic change, this is purely to get the wonder that boosts reformations more in-line with that theme.

 

[pineappledan]

Added proposed Wonder Splash and Quote to OP.

 

[Revolutionist_8]

I like the idea, but also wouldn't want to "lose" St. Basil's Cathedral. Could it be put into somewhere else at the same time? I agree that associating it with Kremlin and the Cold War is probably not a good way (unless the whole wonder is changed).

 

[Amask]

But there are lots of wonders that don’t have 3D models

So just because there are already shortcomings let's introduce more?
Those models may not be important to you personally, and that's fine, but that reasoning is ridiculous.
I like them because a) they add flavour, b) they can be used to spot wonders under construction.
Whether you like that mechanic or not is also a separate discussion.

 

[JamesNinelives]

Having a 3d model would be great, but I'm still in favour of the change for thematic reasons as Pdan describes.

 

[psparky]

To me, switching to a wonder with no model is a backward step. Very much against.

 

[Rekk]

It's not like the model would go away; pdan is actively trying to find a use for it in another thread.

St. Basil's didn't even use to be a medieval era wonder, and didn't have the Reformation benefit. We could just revert it back to the Vanilla/BNW version and we would be up a wonder.

 

[Stalker0]

It's not like the model would go away; pdan is actively trying to find a use for it in another thread.

I think this is the trick to address the 3D model concern that some people have (which is as valid a reason as any other considering this is purely flavor change).

If we agree on a swap for St Basil's somewhere else, than I personally see no reason not to change it. But if we don't, than I also see no good reason too change it either.

 

[pineappledan]

The thread in question about maybe finding another use for the Kremlin wonder

Or maybe some other wonder possibility. There's a big hole in Atomic with no buildable wonders, so I see the potential to kill two birds with one stone here. The way reformation beliefs works in VP is different from the vanilla game, which just had the extra belief unlock at a policy; there wasn't any way for a wonder to augment reformations.

3D models for specific buildings inside cities is extremely hard to do; much harder than adding 3D models for tile improvements. It's so hard that I'm not aware of any example of that ever being done. It's also a lot of work for an extremely small model that few will even notice or appreciate after the first time. The fact that VP integrates a 3D wonder model for a wonder that augments a new mechanic is only possible because the mod cannibalizes an old wonder from the base game. The Kremlin used to be the Order ideology wonder, but it was replaced with the Motherland Calls… Motherland doesn't have a 3D model, yet I have never seen anyone raise a stink about that. So I find those whole 3D model argument to be quite bizarre. I don't think people appreciate the difficulty in what they're demanding, and I'm not suggesting we drop a 3D model from the game entirely, but just move it somewhere else.

 

[Omen of Peace]

I voted yes since I don't like St Basil's granting an Order, but looking at it objectively we could also change the mechanics rather than the fluff of the wonder.

In any case, thanks pineappledan for the work you do to propose incremental improvements!

 

[Rekk]

I voted yes since I don't like St Basil's granting an Order, but looking at it objectively we could also change the mechanics rather than the fluff of the wonder.

In any case, thanks pineappledan for the work you do to propose incremental improvements!

St. Basil gained an order because the Order was the only religious building that wasn't given by a wonder.

 

[SeaPanther]

Yes, but with the stipulation that the Kremlin wonder idea of yours gets implemented.

 

[vyyt]

I don't care that much if the wonder is changed or not, but as far as I know, Karlštejn did not play a major role in the Hussite war and we Czechs do not associate it with religion (or Jan Hus). It was in possession of the Catholics and it was only briefly and unsuccessfully besieged by the Hussites.

I like your reasoning for including the Jan Hus/Hussite theme though. Sadly, I cannot think of any famous Hussite-related castle/wonder.

 

[pineappledan]

St. Basil gained an order because the Order was the only religious building that wasn't given by a wonder.

There’s still the synagogue

I don't care that much if the wonder is changed or not, but as far as I know, Karlštejn did not play a major role in the Hussite war and we Czechs do not associate it with religion (or Jan Hus). It was in possession of the Catholics and it was only briefly and unsuccessfully besieged by the Hussites.

I like your reasoning for including the Jan Hus/Hussite theme though. Sadly, I cannot think of any famous Hussite-related castle/wonder.

I would consider being around and actually besieged during the war as “playing a part”. There was not a decisive action taken there, no, but was a major repository for Catholic relics during the war.

It's more a function of Karlstejn being present, at least somewhat involved, still around as a tourist attraction today, is beautiful (wonder-y), and that the great Janboruta made an excellent icon for it. Karlstejn is all those things. I'm not intimately knowledgeable about the Hussite War, and what major landmarks still commemorate it besides the Old Town Square in Prague.

 

[vyyt]

There’s still the synagogue
I would consider being around and actually besieged during the war as “playing a part”. There was not a decisive action taken there, no, but was a major repository for Catholic relics during the war.

It's more a function of Karlstejn being present, at least somewhat involved, still around as a tourist attraction today, is beautiful (wonder-y), and that the great Janboruta made an excellent icon for it. Karlstejn is all those things. I'm not intimately knowledgeable about the Hussite War, and what major landmarks still commemorate it besides the Old Town Square in Prague.

I understand that your hands are a bit tied here. Karlštejn sure is wonder-y (I bet it would have been inscribed in UNESCO if they didn't rebuild the top of the main tower) and Janboruta's art sure is amazing.

Also, the theme fits well: Jan Hus's teachings were revolutionary for his times and he died as a true hero, burnt to death on stake after refusing to renounce his teachings. And then the following Hussite wars when the armies often consisting of peasants lead by lower-tier nobles were repeatedly utterly crushing the elite crusaders thanks to innovative tactics and their zealotry. Btw, their "UU" was "wagen wall" - the wagons were very mobile while travelling and moving to the battlefield and then they quickly chained them into a wall or fort when they encountered the enemy.

Jan Hus was preaching in the Bethlehem Chapel in Prague, so the chapel would probably make more sense than a castle like Karlštejn, but I think it is not wonder-y enough (and someone would need to make the art, etc.).

During the following war, there were castles more involved than Karlštejn, but they are not famous/wonder-y enough either.

The whole Hussite theme fits the religious reformation nicely. So I guess, despite being possessed by the Catholics (the religion being reformed), Karlštejn, representing a castle from a country where the whole Hussite thing had happened, could work if there's an explanation about Jan Hus and the Hussites in the Civilopedia (I can write it if you want).