[NFP] POLL: Civilization: historical or fantasy game?

What Civilization game should be like? More or less realistic?

  • As historical as it possibly can. No exceptions!

    Votes: 14 5.2%
  • Historical in general. Some less historical content is ok but NO! to any mythic or SF stuff!

    Votes: 104 38.5%
  • Basically historical, but some fantasy in a game is ok. Even SF and myths don't bother me much

    Votes: 97 35.9%
  • 100% historical with one exception. Fantasy features are ok only in separate small fantasy DLC

    Votes: 29 10.7%
  • Devs can go nuts with fiction. No problem with myths, SF, pop culture if they are well designed

    Votes: 26 9.6%

  • Total voters
    270

Wielki Hegemon

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With the introduction of more fantasy content to the game recently - vampires, Cthulu worshippers and in previous content packs (Gilgamesh, GDR, Apocalypse mode, Holy Grail relic, etc.) it is a good moment to say how do we as fans want a Civilization game to be in the future. More realistic and historical? Or maybe we ok with even more crazy fantasy content?
 

PhoenicianGold

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Given that the mere idea of secret societies is quite fantastical, I think it's difficult to say whether NFP 2 is a wholly fantastical small DLC, or if it's a largely historical DLC pack that is tainted by a bit of fantasy.

I personally dislike the idea of validating conspiracy theorists with histor-ish secret societies, so if they had to include them at all I'm glad they made them fantastical. As far as I'm concerned, history/fantasy remains pretty well-compartmentalized.

If anything, I have bigger complaints that although I can play Ethiopia without vampires, I can't play the Maya/GC without that stupid fountain of youth/paititi wonder pack.
 

blackcatatonic

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I'm pretty tolerant of things like the (semi-)mythological natural wonders, the secret societies and even the vampires. I'm a bit less cool with the zombies and aliens, but as long as they stay in Red Death or another optional game mode, that's fine by me.

Where I would draw the line is fictional/fantastical/otherwise entirely made-up Civs, even if they are derived from the historical record or classical works of fiction. No Kingdom of Atlantis or Prester John. And no orcs or elves or hobbits, as much as I adore The Lord of the Rings. That kind of fantasy can stay in Endless Legend, please.
 
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I don't mind a bit of the non-historical stuff as long as it can be played separately. I would also much rather it be in the minority of game mode options.

I agree with PhoenicianGold that Fountain of Youth/Paititi should not be in the regular game mode.
 
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I'm fine with adding fantasy and Sci-Fi things as long as it doesn't stray too far off the deep end.
GDR's are fine as long as we don't start fighting giant Kaiju with them as who knows what we'll build in the future?
"Vampires" are okay as long as they, and their castles, are based upon certain groups of people in history and don't look too out of place. I mean bats are real animals.
Cultists are fine as long as they don't actually summon a Cthulu type monster and act like other cults through history.
 

Tigranes

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I'm pretty tolerant of things like the (semi-)mythological natural wonders, the secret societies and even the vampires. I'm a bit less cool with the zombies and aliens, but as long as they stay in Red Death or another optional game mode, that's fine by me.

Where I would draw the line is fictional/fantastical/otherwise entirely made-up Civs, even if they are derived from the historical record or classical works of fiction. No Kingdom of Atlantis or Prester John. And no orcs or elves or hobbits, as much as I adore The Lord of the Rings. That kind of fantasy can stay in Endless Legend, please.

I fail to see the conceptual difference between zombies and vampires. Both do not exist. History is an "H"'s story. Human's. The product of Humans' brain such as myths and vampires and zombies belong to the Great Works of Writing. I can place my Frankenstein in my Amphitheater. The Civ series are supposed to be about human experience. Humans did experience satanists, and assassins and child soldiers. There is an experience with walking trucks so I can live with GDRs. My main complain is there is a missed opportunity with secret societies -- there were real secret societies but they decided to represent unreal ones.

In general people seem to confuse SciFi with Folklore. Aliens are possible human experience in the future. So are GDRs. Zombies and vampires are not possible neither before nor later.
 
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I fail to see the conceptual difference between zombies and vampires. Both do not exist. History is an "H"'s story. Human's. The product of Humans' brain such as myths and vampires and zombies belong to the Great Works of Writing. I can place my Frankenstein in my Amphitheater. The Civ series are supposed to be about human experience. Humans did experience satanists, and assassins and child soldiers.
The inspiration for the vampires is clearly Vlad the Impaler who did exist. That's at least my reasoning for putting them in the game.
Zombies on the other hand I agree, but at least they are in a whole separate scenario and not part of the main game at all.
 

Kwami

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I fail to see the conceptual difference between zombies and vampires. Both do not exist. History is an "H"'s story. Human's. The product of Humans' brain such as myths and vampires and zombies belong to the Great Works of Writing. I can place my Frankenstein in my Amphitheater. The Civ series are supposed to be about human experience. Humans did experience satanists, and assassins and child soldiers. There is an experience with walking trucks so I can live with GDRs. My main complain is there is a missed opportunity with secret societies -- there were real secret societies but they decided to represent unreal ones.

In general people seem to confuse SciFi with Folklore. Aliens are possible human experience in the future. So are GDRs. Zombies and vampires are not possible neither before nor later.

Actual vampires with immortality and an ability to turn into bats didn't exist, no. Of course, they didn't. But people who drank blood and formed secret societies of "vampires"? They probably did exist. There were actual vampire hunters, too. There's definitely a historical basis for this kind of thing.
 
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Actual vampires with immortality and an ability to turn into bats didn't exist, no. Of course, they didn't. But people who drank blood and formed secret societies of "vampires"? They probably did exist. There were actual vampire hunters, too. There's definitely a historical basis for this kind of thing.
Now I want a Vampire/Witch Hunter Society to directly combat other secret societies.
 

blackcatatonic

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Actual vampires with immortality and an ability to turn into bats didn't exist, no. Of course, they didn't. But people who drank blood and formed secret societies of "vampires"? They probably did exist. There were actual vampire hunters, too. There's definitely a historical basis for this kind of thing.
Thanks; you answered this for me.

Vampires also traditionally are much easier to blend into historical settings than zombies or aliens. And in a game where we have leaders and governors who are literally immortal, and Great People who are not only immortal if unused but also flat-out unkillable, I don't have a problem with vampire units.
 

Xandinho

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I'll be a little radical here: 100% historical. I am a very immersive player and one of the main reasons that I play civilization is my passion for history and having fantasy elements in the game is very unpleasant, I have the Bermuda Triangle, Fountain of Youth and Paititi removed in my games. I like fantasy and science fiction but in a game suitable for that, I don't think civilization is the case. If they launch a fantasy spinoff, I would be perfectly ok and buy, but I particularly prefer that they stay away from pop culture fantasy elements from the main civilization franchise.
 

blackcatatonic

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For fantasy gaming we have World of Warcraft, Heroes of Might and Magic (strategy) and many other games.
And Endless Legend, which is much closer to the kind of game that Civ is than either of those two examples.

You could equally say, for purely historical gaming, we have Crusader Kings 2, EU or even Total War (admittedly not the Warhammer iterations). The Civilization franchise has always been a little more lighthearted in its treatment of history and historical persons than those titles.
 

PhoenicianGold

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I'll be a little radical here: 100% historical. I am a very immersive player and one of the main reasons that I play civilization is my passion for history and having fantasy elements in the game is very unpleasant, I have the Bermuda Triangle, Fountain of Youth and Paititi removed in my games. I like fantasy and science fiction but in a game suitable for that, I don't think civilization is the case. If they launch a fantasy spinoff, I would be perfectly ok and buy, but I particularly prefer that they stay away from pop culture fantasy elements from the main civilization franchise.

Ummmmm...how do you remove the Maya/GC wonders? Is that through a mod, or are you just not playing with the whole DLC turned on, or am I just missing something in the menu?
 

Xandinho

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Morningcalm

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The easy way around Firaxis' evident interest in sci-fi/fantasy stuff is do a game based on mythology, which readily lends itself to a blend of history and fantasy. That said, I don't mind fantastical elements in the game as long as they are optional (I don't like the Bermuda Triangle "natural wonder" in the game since it's not *optional* as such, but I don't mind Red Death or the secret society vampires as one can easily turn them off, and I quite enjoy Apocalypse mode, which is also optional, and arguably less fantastical than it may at first appear).
 

PhoenicianGold

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playshogi

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I dislike the fantasy elements that affect gameplay. GDR is not fantasy, it's just a uber-powerful land unit with a funny name. Gilgamesh, just another leader name. But, apocalypse mode, is always turned off in my games. I don't see what fun it is to see comets raining down in the late game, that somehow miss the oceans, and the soothsayer unit is just silly. Secret societies look OK, except for the vampires. There is nothing conspiratorial about them, they just provide civ-wide benefits, with a funny name. No different than the religion system, really, but easier to start. The cultists sowing madness seems particularly relevant in today's world. But vampires that gain combat strength with each kill and cannot be killed seems a little more difficult to suspend belief for as well as being overpowering.
 
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