I agree the naming could be better and not make it seem as fantasy or fictional. If the name of the unit was something like "Count" and the UI was "Gothic Castle", which I prefer, I think there would have been less of a problem, considering everything else doesn't seem too unrealistic to me.
I can't really make a judgement on it until we see all of the Sanguine Pact's abilities.
Except that "Count," is a very common and generic feudal noble title across Europe. There are Counts, legally speaking, in the UK today, with seats in the House of Lords. The musician Dido Armstrong is an heiress to be a British Countess. There are a LOT of historical European figures with the title Count or Countess for whom no one (except maybe vitriolic Marxist rhetoricists) would associate with "vampires."
Except that "Count," is a very common and generic feudal noble title across Europe. There are Counts, legally speaking, in the UK today, with seats in the House of Lords. The musician Dido Armstrong is an heiress to be a British Countess. There are a LOT of historical European figures with the title Count or Countess for whom no one (except maybe vitriolic Marxist rhetoricists) would associate with "vampires."
I agree. That was the first name I could think of which would be both historical and still be associated with "vampires." Alternatively the name "Boyar" was seen in the video supposedly it could be a possible name for them when they are promoted which are more associated with the Romanian and Slavic nobility anyways.
I think you might be right, but the feminine version I think his still "Countess," (hence Dido Armstrong's inheritance title, and there's a few other "Countesses," in the House of Lords, but, yes, I believe the masculine version is Earl).
I agree. That was the first name I could think of which would be both historical and still be associated with "vampires." Alternatively the name "Boyar" was seen in the video supposedly it could be a possible name for them when they are promoted which are more associated with the Romanian and Slavic nobility anyways.
I agree the naming could be better and not make it seem as fantasy or fictional. If the name of the unit was something like "Count" and the UI was "Gothic Castle", which I prefer, I think there would have been less of a problem, considering everything else doesn't seem too unrealistic to me.
I can't really make a judgement on it until we see all of the Sanguine Pact's abilities.
Well the "vampires" (I don't care about the name so much) gain combat strength when adjacent units are killed (fiction: vampires drink blood and grow stronger), and 'retreat with 1hp instead of dying' (fiction: vampires are immortal and/or can transform into bats to fly away). Also vampiric castles allow for teleportation of units (fiction: teleportation in any era beyond Future).
I think that's the basis for people's issues with the faction.
I think you might be right, but the feminine version I think his still "Countess," (hence Dido Armstrong's inheritance title, and there's a few other "Countesses," in the House of Lords, but, yes, I believe the masculine version is Earl).
Sanguine Pact for me is fine as a concept, but the Vampire unit with its mechanisms clearly is intended to represent the entirely fictional aspects of that "history". If instead the unit and the UI caused debuffs based on 'fear/terror' it would be far more 'historical' to me.
Except that would overlap a lot conceptually/mechanically with the Voidsingers; I'm pretty sure the vampires were intentionally pushed into a different design space. Plus, this vampire can't fly or turn into animals or anything exceptionally fantastical. Certainly nothing much more ahistorical than leylines or madness relics.
I think there is some subconscious compartmentalization if people are willing to accept secret alchemical societies but not cults that believe in blood magic. I don't see this "vampire" as being all that reflective of "high fantasy" vampires, no more than the Hermetic Order is on the level of Harry Potter.
Well the "vampires" (I don't care about the name so much) gain combat strength when adjacent units are killed (fiction: vampires drink blood and grow stronger), and 'retreat with 1hp instead of dying' (fiction: vampires are immortal and/or can transform into bats to fly away). Also vampiric castles allow for teleportation of units (fiction: teleportation in any era beyond Future).
I think that's the basis for people's issues with the faction.
Well apparently Scythians also drink blood to grow stronger.
I mean Great People and traders could already teleport between cities starting in the Ancient Era and Great People don't die when being attacked by barbarians either but are teleported back to the nearest city center.
These were already in the game in the first place.
Sanguine Pact for me is fine as a concept, but the Vampire unit with its mechanisms clearly is intended to represent the entirely fictional aspects of that "history". If instead the unit and the UI caused debuffs based on 'fear/terror' it would be far more 'historical' to me.
Regardless of actual figures , unhappy people are usually far more vocal than the happy ones on internet. Leading to a healthy attitude not to draw conclusions from comments tone or number
Happy people just move on to write another comment on something else they are unhappy with.
Well apparently Scythians also drink blood to grow stronger.
I mean Great People and traders could already teleport between cities starting in the Ancient Era and Great People don't die when being attacked by barbarians either but are teleported back to the nearest city center.
These were already in the game in the first place.
ers; I'm pretty sure the vampires were intentionally pushed into a different design space. Plus, this vampire can't fly or turn into animals or anything exceptionally fantastical. Certainly nothing much more ahistorical than leylines or madness relics.
I think there is some subconscious compartmentalization if people are willing to accept secret alchemical societies but not cults that believe in blood magic. I don't see this "vampire" as being all that reflective of "high fantasy" vampires, no more than the Hermetic Order is on the level of Harry Potter.
Looking strictly at the bonuses, none of them are fantastical in *application* outside of the Sanguine Order.
Scythian units heal when performing a kill, indicative of scavenging to resupply/repair. They don't gain combat strength nor does this bonus apply to adjacent units.
Great People are individuals: "He who travels fastest travels alone." I concede on them being immortal but that has always been a topic of contention since the game released. Trading Caravans less so, but at least they are traveling to your own controlled cities, whereas Vampiric Castles will allow teleportation outside your territory (anywhere you set up a castle in neutral territory) and allow for teleportation of entire armies... supply train and all.
Ley Line bonuses I can at least attribute to a placebo effect and Alchemy was at least a scientific pursuit that would have peripheral positive effects associated as such.
Guys, what this discussion is all about?
We can all agree that vampires are mystical creatures. Right? This is out of the question.`
The question is do we like the idea of mystical creatures din Civilization. Some of us do, some of us don't. End of story. What are we want to prove here?
Guys, what this discussion is all about?
We can all agree that vampires are mystical creatures. Right? This is out of the question.`
The question is do we like the idea of mystical creatures din Civilization. Some of us do, some of us don't. End of story. What are we want to prove here?
Nor much, at all, in common with the Inuit vampire myth or the Chinese "skin vampire," or Japanese gaki myth, or the Levantine/Mesopotamian views of the Descendants of Lilith or her Mesopotamian analog.
Looking strictly at the bonuses, none of them are fantastical in *application* outside of the Sanguine Order.
Scythian units heal when performing a kill, indicative of scavenging to resupply/repair. They don't gain combat strength nor does this bonus apply to adjacent units.
Great People are individuals: "He who travels fastest travels alone." I concede on them being immortal but that has always been a topic of contention since the game released. Trading Caravans less so, but at least they are traveling to your own controlled cities, whereas Vampiric Castles will allow teleportation outside your territory (anywhere you set up a castle in neutral territory) and allow for teleportation of entire armies... supply train and all.
Ley Line bonuses I can at least attribute to a placebo effect and Alchemy was at least a scientific pursuit that would have peripheral positive effects associated as such.
And again here is where your argument falls apart.
You choose to attribute leylines to a placebo effect but not blood drinking.
Also there is much more fantasy to the Voidsingers than cultists recruiting cultists.
As far as I can tell a consistent opinion on this matter would either reject ALL the secret societies as too fantastical, or accept them all as about equally borderline. Beyond that I don't really find all the whinging compelling because in this case not only does your position require splitting hairs, but in my view all of the heads are bald of any hairs to split.
Now, if say the argument were better tailored as "I just don't like vampires," then I could accept it. But that's not what you're saying. What you are saying is you hate one guy for being bald even though you just don't like him as a person, while simultaneously ignoring that his toupe is just as transparently cheap as the other three guys'.
And again here is where your argument falls apart.
You choose to attribute leylines to a placebo effect but not blood drinking.
Also there is much more fantasy to the Voidsingers than cultists recruiting cultists.
As far as I can tell a consistent opinion on this matter would either reject ALL the secret societies as too fantastical, or accept them all as about equally borderline. Beyond that I don't really find all the whinging compelling because in this case not only does your position require splitting hairs, but in my view all of the heads are bald of any hairs to split.
Now, if say the argument were better tailored as "I just don't like vampires," then I could accept it. But that's not what you're saying. What you are saying is you hate one guy for being bald even though you just don't like him as a person, while simultaneously ignoring that his toupe is just as transparently cheap as the other three guys'.
Drinking blood doesn't make you stronger, period. Believing it does, doesn't change that fact.
Ley lines don't make you smarter/ faster/ stronger in and of themselves, but *believing that they do* can literally, scientifically, cause those effects to some degree. That's why I like the *application of their effect* as an increase in district adjacency, because it's as if the positive attitude of believing you're aligned in a spiritual space increases the happiness and productivity of the workers in that space. This is the same application of Missionary Zeal or any one of a handful of other religious beliefs.
I love what they are doing! I love playing realistic but I like that they are mixing it up in the latest "expansion". It's just options, if you want it to be more "realistic" then just don't turn on the options -- I don't get why people are hung up about it. Really hoping for zombies apocalypse and alien invasion modes!
Drinking blood doesn't make you stronger, period. Believing it does, doesn't change that fact.
Ley lines don't make you smarter/ faster/ stronger in and of themselves, but *believing that they do* can literally, scientifically, cause those effects to some degree.
Saying leylines can have a placebo effect but drinking blood (or literally any substance) cannot is blatant compartmentalization and patently wrong. Nearly any belief can have a placebo effect, and that can involve such (mild) biochemical effects as increased pain tolerance, strength, endurance, awareness, or focus. You are making up a distinction which does not and has never existed.
Saying leylines can have a placebo effect but drinking blood (or literally any substance) cannot is blatant compartmentalization and patently wrong. Nearly any belief can have a placebo effect, and that can involve such (mild) biochemical effects as increased pain tolerance, strength, endurance, awareness, or focus. You are making up a distinction which does not and has never existed.
This is the part that gets me about all this content. I don't actually have a problem with fantasy concepts which weren't known at the time to be fantasy. I'd be up for a Civ where you don't know if the world is flat or not until someone researches a technology which lets you know that, for instance.
But I'm very much a nonfan of projecting modern fantasy concepts into a past which didn't have them.
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