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[NFP] POLL: Civilization: historical or fantasy game?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Wielki Hegemon, Jul 15, 2020.

?

What Civilization game should be like? More or less realistic?

  1. As historical as it possibly can. No exceptions!

    14 vote(s)
    5.2%
  2. Historical in general. Some less historical content is ok but NO! to any mythic or SF stuff!

    104 vote(s)
    38.5%
  3. Basically historical, but some fantasy in a game is ok. Even SF and myths don't bother me much

    97 vote(s)
    35.9%
  4. 100% historical with one exception. Fantasy features are ok only in separate small fantasy DLC

    29 vote(s)
    10.7%
  5. Devs can go nuts with fiction. No problem with myths, SF, pop culture if they are well designed

    26 vote(s)
    9.6%
  1. Kupe Navigator

    Kupe Navigator Prince

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    interesting...
    see even them have real life counter-part.
    and people are upset that Civ didn't use actual names of these societies:nono:.
     
  2. Abaxial

    Abaxial Prince

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    Really, Firaxis have jumped the shark.

    I feel betrayed. I bought the NFP in good faith, that my money would be put to good use improving Civ 6. Instead, the devs have squandered their time with aliens, soothsayers, undead, Cthulhu cultists and so on. That time could have been better spent fixing bugs and other broken features, but that would require a bit of self discipline, which this bunch of (apparent) teenagers don't seem to have. They prefer to indulge in fantasy and then make that stupid video of them doing horseplay with fancy lights. Are there no adults in the team any longer?

    I don't buy this argument that the fantasy stuff is shut off in an optional mode and we don't have to play it. I've paid for it! I want to see value for my money, and this fantasy stuff is not what I bought Civ 6 for.

    I'm now quite disenchanted. Firaxis will now obviously do whatever silly thing they fancy, and there is no point in discussing how the game should be improved. Next stop will be adding Hogwarts to the campus district.
     
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  3. Kupe Navigator

    Kupe Navigator Prince

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    owls of Minerva: are basically based on real-life secret societies- like Illuminati and Freemasonry.
    Hermetic Order: basically Alchimist- and yes Alchimist were real before it evolved into chemisty
    Voidsingers: they are cults and even now there are various cults around the world
    The Sanguine Pact : Unlike last three we don't know much about them so I have to give really rough guess but I'd say they are based on ruthless warrior group like Aztecs and Maoris( Maoris believed eating the enemy would give their mana to them)
    Sanguine just means the color of blood so it can refer to any secret society that can form a "blood" pact.
    I think the main inspiration might be based off of the Order of the Dragon who members were of various noble families, including Vlad Dracul the father of Vlad the Impaler and and the Bathory family of Hungary and Romania, who are coincidentally deeply rooted in the whole "vampire" myths yet are real historical people.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Dragon

    They ARE baised on history. If you can't see it. Return your history card please.

    And boy you must be fun at parties. bit upset at Firaxis making a fun game?
     
  4. Josephias

    Josephias King

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    Out of some reactions here I'd better say vampires are for some a big nail in the coffin for Civ 6 (pun very intended :D, now let's chill out).


    I underestand for some, Vampires are not a welcome additions. I'm not a fan big fan of the GDR either, and also of some smaller things and how they look in-game even if "realistic". E.g. I hate the way sky resorts and cahokia mounds show in the map. This even leads me to not use them, or use them minimally even when they would be beneficial for my game (playing king difficulty allows for some of these luxuries). I underestand the canal addition, however I would find the much-requested "brigde" district unnecessary and immersion-breaking too. ¿Would any of these things that are already in the game or might be in the game in the future ruin it? Can't tell for sure. Unfortunately it is difficult nowadays to go back to "unpatched" versions of any game (altough maybe I'm being too much old-school and mods are the answer there).

    In any case, I'll try to play with them in, even if I try to avoid them as much as possible (as done already, as commented, with sky resorts or mounds), maybe it can be saved. And no, I don't feel that much ownership of the game to ask my money back if they put things I do not like, or if the diplomatic quarter ruins my metagame... I know the "investment" I made when buying the full NFP had its risks, and I will not make. Just for the meat+vegetables example several pages ago: no, they did not offer you a "a la carte" meal, it is a "dish of the day" menu, like it or not (or if you want something more expensive, an "author meal" menu), and it will have the available (or "paired") side dishes, not the ones your expected. (And I tell you this as someone who can't barely stand sweet sauces, but has had to eat his meat already tainted by them when served).

    Of course, if I dislike everything they throw me at, they can't expect I do the same and pay in advance for FFP (if any). And I can be worried about certain directions design is taking, sure. But I think there's quite a bit of grey area where they can stray away and go back, and I do not se, personally, vampires as the biggest offender.

    Also, ¿did I told you I like to play devil's advocate?. So...

    let's continue

    We had never seen a trader build the roads it is travelling trough, but we have it in Civ6
    We had never seen sea units pillage land tiles, but privateers (and all Norway melee) were included.
    We had never seen religion having a main agressive layer, yet religious combat (with thunderbolts) was included.
    We had never seen horses built of iron, yet knights require it (and not horses) as a resource...
    ....
    ...


    Point made, "we have never seen" is not a very strong argument when talking of new mechanics. As fantastic is having an unit retreating with 1HP, as units that become stronger with luxuries (aztecs) or by carring along them some bearded priests (spain). Or traders that suddenly cannot be pillaged because there is a unit in a radius of hundreds of kilometers (mali, phoenicia). I mean, most mechanics are gamey and unrealistic, and we can explain most of them in some way or another, ¿why not others?

    Indeed your last sentence "and certainly not in a controlled teleport originating and/or ending in neutral territory." should be already in the game and would make Airstrips much more valuable than an eureka-giving improvement has they are :)
     
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  5. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    Yes the name Dracul means Dragon and the coat of arms of Elizabeth Batharoy has a dragon on it. Both were taken from the name of the order.

    I mean calling a bunch of adults that develop the game teenagers sounds very insulting and childish in itself. They didn't have to give us more content like the Maya or Ethiopia either but I'm grateful that they did.

    I'd hate the way a sky resort would look on the map as well, even though I've never seen one. :mischief:
    Kidding, I know you meant ski resort.
    I'm not the biggest fan of Sci-Fi or futuristic things either but I can live with the GDR at least being the only "Future Era" unit, even if it is unlocked in the late Information Era. At least large robots exist.
     
  6. oSiyeza

    oSiyeza Prince

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    I think this is nobodies fault but yours for buying prerelease. Im not trying to be disrespectful, I would have preferred them to work in the main game too. But they were mostly clear when they announced the pack in what kind of content were they trying to release.

    When buying undisclossed content consisting mostly on new civs and new game modes that would be a bit too out of the box to fit the main game, It was not really reasonable to expect any overhaul in basic game systems. Im afraid that time was long gone before the new pass already.

    Also silly thing they fancy is a subjective opinion, but still as I said it was reasonable to expect something the like given the information Fxs gave us beforehand.
     
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  7. Wielki Hegemon

    Wielki Hegemon King

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    You know, I will share a secret with you. I am not obsessed with Celts and I will not worry or bothered if they never appear. The story here is very simple. You like the idea of vampires and you don't like the idea of the Celts. The rest is a clap trap. Completely irrelevant and not even consistent in argumentation.
    Now when we established the facts, please understand that the same way you don't like some ideas the other people don't like different ideas perhaps even yours. So please don't use terms like "butthurt" because someone can use it in relation to you. It is ok to have your own opinions, but it is very not ok to discredit others' opinions as crying or compliments. It is ok to have your own 100% subjective opinions but it is ridiculous to cover them behind some objective facts or historical arguments. I hope you now understand...
     
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  8. Kupe Navigator

    Kupe Navigator Prince

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    But one is on actuall civ while other is mere game feature. untied Celts is fictional as elves. Now Even though I am OK with so called "vampires" as a unit, I wouldn't be OK with Vampire as actual civ.
    If you can't see the difference between a unit and a civ...
    what is wrong with you man?
     
  9. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    I feel that this is the same reaction that people had in the first fighter's pass for Super Smash Bros.
    The only difference is they started out strong and ended with another Fire Emblem character which made people mad. I think this will have the opposite effect, at least I hope where they hit it out of the ball park at the end.

    I had no idea what I was getting into either but I've been pleasantly surprised. I do agree that the only reason I go the full pass though is the new Persona packs sounded interesting and that was the only way I could get Rough Rider Teddy in my game and Louis XIV, I meant Magnificent Catherine. :mischief:
    Also it's not like they have abandoned the base game altogether considering they've given us the Diplomatic Quarter as well.

    Well I kind of did want Vlad Tepes leading Romania before all of this was announced. :shifty:
     
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  10. Wielki Hegemon

    Wielki Hegemon King

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    Don't you see it's funny when you fight for historical accuracy in one topic even with Wikipedia quotation and at the exact same time in a different topic you try to convince everyone that unhistorical features are ok, even more, they are in fact historical? And you call their opinion that historical aspect of the game is important for them a butthurt? :mischief:
     
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  11. Kupe Navigator

    Kupe Navigator Prince

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    for all the intents and purposes, Vald is real life figure, so I wouldn't have minded that.

    What I have a problem with is if Dracula is the leading nation of vampires.
    As long as it isn't that I am OK.

    Oh boy
    owls of Minerva: are basically based on real-life secret societies- like Illuminati and Freemasonry.
    Hermetic Order: basically Alchimist- and yes Alchimist were real before it evolved into chemisty
    Voidsingers: they are cults and even now there are various cults around the world
    The Sanguine Pact : Unlike last three we don't know much about them so I have to give really rough guess but I'd say they are based on ruthless warrior group like Aztecs and Maoris( Maoris believed eating the enemy would give their mana to them)
    Sanguine just means the color of blood so it can refer to any secret society that can form a "blood" pact.
    I think the main inspiration might be based off of the Order of the Dragon who members were of various noble families, including Vlad Dracul the father of Vlad the Impaler and and the Bathory family of Hungary and Romania, who are coincidentally deeply rooted in the whole "vampire" myths yet are real historical people.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Dragon

    And how is secret society unhistoric again?
     
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  12. Zaarin

    Zaarin Chief Medical Officer, DS9

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    Then you should really try reading better fantasy. The entire genre isn't made up of Game of Thrones and other pulp stories. The appeal of the genre, IMO, is the intricacy of the world-building and history developed by authors like Tolkien.
     
  13. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    My bad for not quoting the whole post, it was in the context of "alternate history"

    But I'll concede that there are some good fantasy set in uchrony.

    I'd play that btw, a 4x were you could choose between tech or magic path, then go steampunk at some later point.
     
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  14. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

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    Now I will say that no fantasy element in the game bugs me more than the (glossed over?) CivIV situation where an entire wagon train of settlers could get eaten by a lion. I don't remember anyone complaining about that as being immersion-breaking.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2020
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  15. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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  16. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

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    ha, fair enough.

    Though it doesn't mean I think Civ4 "jumped the shark" or ruined the franchise forever or any of other similar things we're currently hearing.
     
  17. PhoenicianGold

    PhoenicianGold Emperor

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    I was already disappointed in the developers for Smash, so I didn't buy the season pass because I just knew it would have at least one Fire Emblem character and probably some other niche animu characters like Persona or Dragon Quest. I figured if they did have something specific I wanted like Banjo Kazooie I would just buy that by itself.

    The difference with Firaxis is that so far they have pretty consistently adhered to an overarching design sensibility amounting to more than just sheer baiting and fanservice (which is increasingly rare in serialized media) and I think that generates enough goodwill for me to trust that they will continue to put out quality work. As of the announcement of NFP, they had accumulating quite a lot of goodwill and hadn't yet done much to erode that. In fact, Maya/GC were the first time since Georgia and Scotland that I had any issue with their design decisions, and still overall the contents of the pack were still of such quality that I didn't quite mind that they added fantasy natural wonders (and since then I've modded them out). As it stands, they are still keeping within my expectations, since I thought that Maya and Ethiopia were generally more important to include than Portugal, Byzantium, or Assyria/Babylon. The question as to whether they keep my goodwill for further content is if they keep fleshing out parts of the map that deserve more representation like North America, Africa, and Southeast Asia; or if they just lazily settle for a bunch of returning staples from Europe and the Middle East. But those are my personal standards and hopes based on what it appears the devs want the finished game to look like; expectations vary from consumer to consumer and what creates goodwill for me might not for others.

    Another thing I would like to point out is that the cost-benefit was practically non-existent for those who had any doubts, whereas if I recall correctly the smash brothers season pass saved a larger percentage of the total cost. Nobody really had to buy the NFP in totality; they could have purchased each individually and it would only cost them two dollars more for the entire year. So yes, I do agree that, if a player was the sort who might be unhappy about "fantasy" in VI--and indeed had notice that NFP would contain fantasy thanks to the Maya/GC reveal before the pass was even available for purchase--then it is entirely their fault for laying down money on a product that they trusted the invisible hand of consumer economics to conform to their demands. Instead of just presuming that publishers of mass media will make thing they like, they should have been more closely analyzing whether the actual authors of the product would put out work that fits the player's sensibilities, and even still bear in mind that commissioned works are a gamble on goodwill and are not guaranteed to meet expectations.

    Even Game of Thrones was a loose mosaic of British and European history. I know there are complaints on these boards about the tone of the series but even still I think it squarely falls into "fantasy based on history." And yes I do agree that the best fantasy shows its historical work.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2020
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  18. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    I mean Game of Thrones, or A Song of Ice and Fire, is based in a fantasy world based off of a lot of both Medieval and Renaissance European and Asian history, and has a fair amount of world building in it. I'm not going to argue how much detail it goes into compared to Tolkien though but it's much more realistic with the main sentient beings are just humans, instead of Middle Earth with hobbits, elves, dwarves etc.

    I mean I'd rather jump the shark than swim with them.


    I don't want to derail the thread but to me I didn't care at all considering I'm a completionist when it comes to games like that and Civ. Banjo Kazooie was the one I wanted and after that they could do no wrong to me and could add anybody they liked.

    I mean I'm expecting both to happen. Returning staples and bringing in new parts of the world. I think Africa might be done, at least Sub-Sahara Africa, in the NFP.
    Culturally North Africa is different and it could even be paired easily with a Middle East pack.
    I personally haven't seen any less quality work than what they've done in the past.
     
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  19. Duuk

    Duuk Doom-Sayer Supporter

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    On a side note: I've been wanting Vlad Tepes as a leader for Wallachia for a long, long time. Like "Civ3 should have had it."

    Historically a badass that kept getting run out of town and CAME BACK FOR MORE and then was like, "Impale all of my enemies."

    The historical DEFINITION of Machiavellianism run rampant.
     
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  20. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    That sounds kind of familiar like the vampire unit we are getting. :mischief:
     
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