1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

[NFP] POLL: Civilization: historical or fantasy game?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Wielki Hegemon, Jul 15, 2020.

?

What Civilization game should be like? More or less realistic?

  1. As historical as it possibly can. No exceptions!

    14 vote(s)
    5.2%
  2. Historical in general. Some less historical content is ok but NO! to any mythic or SF stuff!

    104 vote(s)
    38.5%
  3. Basically historical, but some fantasy in a game is ok. Even SF and myths don't bother me much

    97 vote(s)
    35.9%
  4. 100% historical with one exception. Fantasy features are ok only in separate small fantasy DLC

    29 vote(s)
    10.7%
  5. Devs can go nuts with fiction. No problem with myths, SF, pop culture if they are well designed

    26 vote(s)
    9.6%
  1. Abaxial

    Abaxial King

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2017
    Messages:
    813
    Gender:
    Male
    Anyone who has been reading this forum for a while will be familiar with many sensible suggestions for features to add to the game. I don't think anyone ever suggested that throwing units into volcanoes would be a good feature.
     
    Meluhhan and lotrmith like this.
  2. Amrunril

    Amrunril Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2015
    Messages:
    1,211
    I generally like the historical theme of Civilization, but I'm fine with some fantasy add-ons, as long as they're optional and make internal sense (as well as provide interesting gameplay, of course). Thus, I'm fine with Secret Societies Mode and soothsayers, but I think it's problematic for the Bermuda triangle to be automatically added to the main game and for climate change to be the asteroid impact trigger in Apocalypse Mode..

    I would argue, though, that trying to apply an historical rationale to Secret Societies Mode is a mistake. That's not to say a historical Secret Societies Mode wouldn't be possible, but the bonuses we've seen are just too over the top for such a perspective. Is it plausible for a secret society to create gameplay relevant benefits through coordination of efforts, investments in particular fields, placebo effects, and so forth? Absolutely? Is it plausible for those effects to dwarf those of major international alliances? Or of religions practiced by large fractions of the world's population? Not so much. But the secret society bonuses we've seen do exactly that. If secret societies' effects are going to be this game-changing, then I'd argue that compartmentalizing them as fantasy is actually less disruptive to the game's overall flavor than trying to explain such massive gameplay effects with comparatively trivial historical flavor.
     
    Meluhhan, Imaus, Kjimmet and 4 others like this.
  3. Karmah

    Karmah Emperor Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2011
    Messages:
    1,071
    À very interesting perspective that kinda makes me revise my opinion.
     
  4. PhoenicianGold

    PhoenicianGold Emperor

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2018
    Messages:
    1,597
    I absolutely agree with this. My point generally is that there's some compartmentalization going on if vampires are "fantastical" but leylines and artifacts of madness are not. If people can rationalize those elements as being historic-ish, then vampires are as well. Either the whole Secret Society mode is fantasy, or it isn't. Any of these attempts to argue that taking vampires out of Secret Societies would make it any less fantastical are delusional. To my mind it is a "low fantasy" mode, is properly enjoyed as such, and thankfully does not deprive players of the main game's historical purity. I find the perspective that this Secret Societies was ever intended to or could ever be a sufficiently "historical" indulgence to be untenable, as secret societies have always been tied with mysticism and wild conspiracy theories on par with alien encounters.
     
    Alexander's Hetaroi likes this.
  5. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2003
    Messages:
    7,805
    Location:
    Europe, more or less
    I want to dispute how historically deep civ 6 ever was. Take the policy card. They are just a name and some modifiers attached to them. Nothing making you truly believe that you now have "Insulae" or you just instituted "town charters". They could change the look of your towns, or the UI changes when you have a professional army. Maybe the text in the news is different. That are big thingd, you can only do them with less content than civ 6 ever had, but sometimes less is more.

    But in civ6, you are still leading your civ as a party on a board game. The historical names given on any element are just window dressing and don't necessarily make internal sensd. They make everything seem historic and make you seem to learn about history, but they don't. They make jokes about it (which I like), but that just means that a Cult lf Ctulhu isn't that different from the rest of the game. It's a direction to take, but they have started on it a long time ago. So if you really value historical simulation, then you better chose a different game rather sooner than later.
     
    PhoenicianGold and AsH2 like this.
  6. Zaarin

    Zaarin Chief Medical Officer, DS9

    Joined:
    May 14, 2016
    Messages:
    8,382
    Location:
    Terok Nor
    Eh, if you suck everything beautiful out of history and exaggerate everything ugly, I don't call that realistic; that's just being titillated by shock. (Also, the word you want isn't realism; it's verisimilitude--and I'm going to argue that Tolkien--or Pratchett, for that matter--is leagues ahead of GRRM in the verisimilitude department.)
     
    Patine, Imaus and lotrmith like this.
  7. AsH2

    AsH2 Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2002
    Messages:
    434
    Location:
    Sweden
    In a cynical mood, I'd think Civ devs main goal is to release a boardgame spin-off. Especially when it comes to civ6 and how it's been flesh out...til NFP.
    Civ6 is full of mechanics that seems rather fantastic than historical in their gamey appearance - content may not be an issue, but (it's) structure is.
    The addition of game modes makes me a bit hopeful - they can release sensible and balanced concepts and let game modes enhance them for those "in need of more impactful content" to play with.
     
    mitsho likes this.
  8. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2017
    Messages:
    6,232
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Texas
    I'm not going to disagree that they are over the top, but at the same time each one does have some sort of historical influence, even the Lovecraft cultists which could just be seen as any religious cult throughout history as long as they don't summon a Cthulu. :)
    At the same time am also sure that we can also see some crazy over the top bonuses in historical game modes too, such as corporations which I know a lot of people do want. They would be a single state run corporation that will influence how you play the game while competing against other big state corporations of other civs.

    I mean that's basically what he tries to convey. He didn't want to write about a fantasy world where there is a happily ever after for all the "good" guys.
     
  9. Zaarin

    Zaarin Chief Medical Officer, DS9

    Joined:
    May 14, 2016
    Messages:
    8,382
    Location:
    Terok Nor
    Eh, I have no sympathy for people who perpetuate the Dark Ages myth. Anyone who needs that much taboo sex and violence to try to sell something doesn't have anything worth buying from where I'm standing. :coffee: (Also there's a huge gulf between "happily ever after" and "grimdark.")
     
  10. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2017
    Messages:
    6,232
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Texas
    I don't want to stray too far off topic but I enjoyed the story, no matter how dark it seemed sometimes, because it wasn't as if it was without any sort of humor. I agree that the sex scenes were honestly too much at the beginning and I can easily do without that and graphic violence. At least they toned it down in the end for me.
     
  11. Brutus2

    Brutus2 Prince

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2004
    Messages:
    520
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Philadelphia, USA
    I always try to remember that not everyone enjoys the same things that I do so I have no problem with devs adding anything that might be fun or might appeal to a segment of the player base even if it's not my preference. I think the optional game modes are really the best way to implement these things so everyone can customize the game just the way they like. I do wish things like the fountain of youth and Bermuda triangle were added as optional modes. I do like them and would often use them even if they were optional it's just nice to have the option for people who would want to disable them.
     
    Kupe Navigator likes this.
  12. PhoenicianGold

    PhoenicianGold Emperor

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2018
    Messages:
    1,597
    I think that's just a tad harsh. While GRRM is definitely a bit of a grimdark edgelord, I would argue the castles and some of the cities are often described as beautiful. And, inconsequential and indulgent as it may be, the food seems quite tasty.

    I would argue that GRRM's writing isn't that far off from "happily ever after" high fantasy. People were so shocked by the necessary deaths of a few secondary cahracters in the first act to set off the rest of the plot, that they never noticed how much plot armor was on the main characters. GRRM clearly never had any intention of killing anyone of consequence off until the final book. It was always a traditional, epic fantasy, just with a lot more named redshirts being offed every chapter to maintain the illusion of danger.
     
    Alexander's Hetaroi likes this.
  13. lotrmith

    lotrmith King

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    725
    Again some people take issue only with the application of effects. There is nothing that the Voidsingers accomplish in Civ6 that a real life cult could not accomplish in the same manner. Accepting, for example, that religions are based on fiction, there's no conceptual difference between the implementation of the Voidsingers and any Religion in-game. "Relics of the Void" could be viewed as fake as the Shroud of Turin or the Ark of the Covenant, yet their effect of providing faith and tourism is not fantastical.
     
    Alexander's Hetaroi likes this.
  14. PhoenicianGold

    PhoenicianGold Emperor

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2018
    Messages:
    1,597
    They achieve a DARK SUMMONING. They literally call down an Elder God from the depths of R'lyeh. That is something no religion or cult can do in the game.

    You are eager to manufacture explanations for how the Relics of the Void could be fake, yet cannot will yourself to imagine an explanation for how the vampire units are equally fake and achieve their bonuses in a way similar to Scythia's ability.

    You are not putting forth arguments. There is nothing to argue against because the distinctions you are fabricating to support your opinion do not exist in fact. You're just trying to shroud your irrational disdain for vampires in a thin veil of hypocritical, impressionistic nonsense.

    Before you respond, take a deep breath. Count to ten. And then type out "I just don't like vampires." It's okay. It is OKAY to hate vampires just because you don't like that flavor of fantasy. You don't need a stronger reason than that. But you don't need to be performing ridiculous mental gymnastics to try to pretend that Lovecraft isn't fantasy just because it's a flavor of fantasy you happen to enjoy and buy into more.
     
  15. lotrmith

    lotrmith King

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    725
    Dark Summoning provides Faith and increases the amount of Loyalty Reduction that Cultists can achieve. What exactly about that *effect* is fantastical?
     
  16. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2017
    Messages:
    6,232
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Texas
    I wouldn't be on board with them if they could actually summon Cthulu oran Elder God unit in the game. Are those the same things or are they different? Anyway considering they don't I'm okay with their implementation as a cultist society, just as I am with the Sanguine Pact.
     
  17. PhoenicianGold

    PhoenicianGold Emperor

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2018
    Messages:
    1,597
    What exactly is fantastical about a unit that gains combat strength when adjacent units die, Mr. Placebo? Or a unit that functions as a hybrid between a melee swordsman and a great person?

    Your distinctions remain arbitrary. You have yet to put forth a single, coherent argument that vampires are any worse than the other secret societies.
     
  18. lotrmith

    lotrmith King

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    725
    A combat unit taking lethal damage but not dying is fantastical.
    A combat unit dogpiling a bunch of warriors and coming out with the combat strength of a modern armor army is fantastical.

    You have yet to answer what about the *effects* of the other societies is fantastical.
     
    Kupe Navigator likes this.
  19. PhoenicianGold

    PhoenicianGold Emperor

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2018
    Messages:
    1,597
    Great generals and admirals can't die either, but they do contribute to combat. It would be the first unit to straddle the line between combat units and great persons, but we already have plenty of immortal units in the game. I fail to see how introducing, as a matter of pure mechanics, a combat unit that is harder to kill, at all "fantastical." And you don't actually care about the not-dying. You care that it is called a vampire.

    Combat units can get quite substantial combat bonuses through policy cards and civ abilities, that is not fantastical. But you don't care that the unit gets combat bonuses. You care that it is called a vampire.

    Nothing you have observed about the vampire unit is any more fantastical than invisible leylines increasing your yields through "alchemy" or cultist units with charges that reduce loyalty through "madness". The mechanics have always been there and honestly haven't evolved much to accommodate these societies. The bottom line is you are fine with alchemical mysticism as an explanation for new mechanical space but not vampirism. You are fine with a extremely powerful unit which is a hybrid between a missionary and an indie rock band, units which already exist in the game, being explained with Lovecraftian horror. But a powerful unit which is a hybrid between a swordsman and a great-person, again both of which already exist in the game, is apparently too "fantastical."

    I've decided the Voidsingers shouldn't be in this game because they are too fantastical. Really, what I mean is that Lovecraft fans are clearly suggestible idiots and I want nothing to do with tawdry cults of anti-intellectualist fiction in my game. But I'm not actually going to admit that and instead talk circles around the issue, insisting that the Old Ones are too fantastical compared to vampires. That my respectable vampire mythology that is being adorably referenced by a landed boyar with a blood fetish is more historically legitimate than their demonic cults that are reducing loyalty in cities with madness-inducing magic (and yes madness is the official, in-game explanation for a charge ability no other unit has). The "effect" is pure fantasy; I won't stand for it.

    Your "effects" argument amounts to stupid nitpicking. Half of the mechanics in the entire game are abstractions that do not make sense literally, and exist more as pure mechanical interest/balancing than communicating any sort of historical truth. What minimal things make the vampire unit stand out from other combat units are also a means of making it mechanically interesting and worth playing in the first place. Your argument is against flavor, not "effect", elsewise you would have stopped playing civ years ago.
     
    Nerevatar likes this.
  20. lotrmith

    lotrmith King

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    725
    You're accusing me of "fabricating distinctions" when those distinctions are incredibly relevant. A support unit and a combat unit are significant distinctions. You have an issue with the NAME, not the effects. The other 3 societies, so far, are in practical application indistinguishable from current in-game religions. You can found a religion that creates warrior monks, increases the output of your districts, makes buildings that provide production, and increases combat strength by a fixed amount in converted territories. You can NAME YOUR RELIGION "LOVECRAFTIAN LOVEMAKERS".

    Stop presuming to tell me what my opinion is. Thanks.
     

Share This Page