[NFP] POLL: Civilization: historical or fantasy game?

[_hero_]

I have no problem whatsoever with the fantasy stuff. I do think that by not catering to the modding community more, they do make these things into issues unnecessarily. If this game was designed modder friendly, you'd already have modders talking about making a more history-based mod for secret societies to appeal to the crowd that doesn't like the fantasy stuff.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Again, I can easily interpret the unit as being a totally non-fantastical count with a blood fetish, because those historically existed.

Outside of maybe a Haitian zombie unit or maybe a Wiccan with the ability to create a crystal shop improvement, I simply can't do that with other mythical creatures. I can't pretend that some real-world equivalent of werewolves exists outside of trichosis which wouldn't translate well to game design in multiple respects. I can't pretend that ghosts or merfolk or trolls or centaurs actually existed. But the core idea of a vampire, a being that feasts on human blood, is not only something that has existed among the psychopathic aristocracy for centuries, but feeds into some of the oldest mythologies from around the world.

As long as this "vampire" is presented as being heavily determined within the constraints of a blood cult and doesn't do anything too fantastic, I accept it as "historical enough" for a secret societies pack with alchemists and worshippers of the Old Ones. It fits right in, and I find the virtiol that is being levelled at the vampires and not the entire Secret Societies pack to be hypocritical.

People are making a big deal out of nothing. It's a boyar with a fancy castle who just happens to drink blood because they're a superstitious bigot.

 

[Tigranes]

Anyone claiming they want Civ to be a 100% historical game is just too ignorant to realize that. Those people claiming to be history buff who are saying that Civ is a historical immersive game are ludicrous. Even the map is ahistorical. Yes, even if you're playing those maps based on Earth.
You're literally playing with toy soldiers in impossible scenarios ffs. It's like a kid playing with their toys, but with a more complex gameplay. History is just for flavor.

You are missing the point so entirely, that I fear it would be hard to reason with you. But I will try.

Any game by definition is a form of entertainment. Just like movies are. Now, we have a series like Narcos and series like Twilight. We have a game of Civ and we have a game of Endless Legends. No entertainment is ever 100% historical. But Narcos are based on real events from real history. Civ based on real events from real history. It would be strange to watch Narcos and meet an undead vampire. It is strange to play civ and meet a vampire. Simple as that. It's a departure from 5 previous installments. It is contrary to the Sid's spirit that started the whole franchise. All this teleporting between castles belong to the different kind of game, but they chose it over something like a corporation or real secret society, like a Mafia or Black Dragon Society. These kind of people really existed and influenced historical events. During the Russo-Japanese War, annexation of Korea and Siberian Intervention, the Imperial Japanese Army made use of the Black Dragon network for espionage, sabotage and assassination. They organized Manchurian guerrillas against the Russians from the Chinese warlords and bandit chieftains in the region, the most important being Marshal Chang Tso-lin. The Black Dragons waged a very successful psychological warfare campaign in conjunction with the Japanese military, spreading disinformation and propaganda throughout the region.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Again, I can easily interpret the unit as being a totally non-fantastical count with a blood fetish, because those historically existed.

I'm not going to assume that some may still exist, but this is my sentiments as well and look forward to playing as them and against them.

 

[caketastydelish]

I'm fine with adding fantasy and Sci-Fi things as long as it doesn't stray too far off the deep end.
GDR's are fine as long as we don't start fighting giant Kaiju with them as who knows what we'll build in the future?
"Vampires" are okay as long as they, and their castles, are based upon certain groups of people in history and don't look too out of place. I mean bats are real animals.
Cultists are fine as long as they don't actually summon a Cthulu type monster and act like other cults through history.

Civ games for a long time had us reaching Alpha Centauri with a space ship being something we could realistically do, and by 2050, at that. I don't think we will have Giant Death Robots by 2050 either but that is still far more plausible, in comparison. My problem with Vampires is that from my understanding, the unit can't die. How could that possibly not be overpowered?

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Civ games for a long time had us reaching Alpha Centauri with a space ship being something we could realistically do, and by 2050, at that. I don't think we will have Giant Death Robots by 2050 either but that is still far more plausible, in comparison. My problem with Vampires is that from my understanding, the unit can't die. How could that possibly not be overpowered?

I agree, if I have any issues with the unit they are mechanical. Although I suspect there will either be an extremely high cost to obtaining them, or a very low cap on how many you have acquire.

 

[caketastydelish]

What do you mean by mechanical?

 

[oSiyeza]

Civ games for a long time had us reaching Alpha Centauri with a space ship being something we could realistically do, and by 2050, at that. I don't think we will have Giant Death Robots by 2050 either but that is still far more plausible, in comparison. My problem with Vampires is that from my understanding, the unit can't die. How could that possibly not be overpowered?

Weird statement since no military unit from the game ages or dies or has limited lifespam. In that sense vampires are only different in the sense they have a reason to behabe lime the rest of the units... Also vampires can be killed, and I don't think the in gave vampires will explode in the sun..

So... whats the problem then?

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

My problem with Vampires is that from my understanding, the unit can't die. How could that possibly not be overpowered?

I can't answer that because we have no idea how they will play out. They could take forever to heal up back to normal maybe even only through pillaging for all we know.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

What do you mean by mechanical?

By that I mean how it functions as a matter of game mechanics, not the aesthetic design. I agree with you that I'm a bit wary about a unit that can't be killed as far as game balance goes.

Although I'm not too wary. Ultimately I think games like this are hard to balance and my general attitude is if you can't balance it, then make everything broken and fun.

 

[oSiyeza]

Just a thought. To all the people that complains on the things they don't want to see in the game.

Why not suggest some content that we actually like or want, and accept that not everything is going to be to our taste?

There are different types of players. If there is some kind of content we want, we should discuss about that in a constructive way.

We won't have what we want if we don't express whats what we want. Complaining on the content we don't like without making any concrete suggestion, will not benefit us, has only the effect of attacking the players that actually like the content, and creates a separation in the players that has no reason to exist.

The NFP allows all players to have content of their liking, the devs already said that next modes will be historical. So why the complains? How this helps anybody? We better discuss the historical content we want if that is what we want and accept that some ahistorical modes are fine, and some historical modes are also fine, and the game is better for allowing both types of content.

For this reason I am also not voting in the poll. The current model does not force anyone to use any of the new content. Im fine with that, and I have no opinion on the next game yet.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

By that I mean how it functions as a matter of game mechanics, not the aesthetic design. I agree with you that I'm a bit wary about a unit that can't be killed as far as game balance goes.

I know they aren't combat units, but if William Shakespeare can go scouting for Russia and then get "attacked" by barbarians while teleporting back to St. Petersburg, I can live with another immortal unit, that I guess should be immortal.
I need to see more of it and the Sanguine Pact bonuses to get a better understanding.

 

[caketastydelish]

Weird statement since no military unit from the game ages or dies or has limited lifespam. In that sense vampires are only different in the sense they have a reason to behabe lime the rest of the units... Also vampires can be killed, and I don't think the in gave vampires will explode in the sun..

So... whats the problem then?

All other military units can be captured or killed by combat itself. My understanding is the vampire unit doesn't die or get captured no matter how many times it is attacked and by how strong the force.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

I know they aren't combat units, but if William Shakespeare can go scouting for Russia and then get "attacked" by barbarians while teleporting back to St. Petersburg, I can live with another immortal unit, that I guess should be immortal.
I need to see more of it and the Sanguine Pact bonuses to get a better understanding.

Oh the flavor of immortality doesn't bother me at all. It's more that great persons operate within a completely different mechanical system. All the other great persons are immortal. But not all the other military units are unkillable, And that presents potential balance issues.

 

[Kwami]

I can't answer that because we have no idea how they will play out. They could take forever to heal up back to normal maybe even only through pillaging for all we know.

The video suggests that they do indeed heal only through pillaging. So, you'll have a vulnerable vampire pillaging his way back to full health. That's probably OK.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

The video suggests that they do indeed heal only through pillaging. So, you'll have a vulnerable vampire pillaging his way back to full health. That's probably OK.

I'd wager a safe bet that the vampire unit can't fortify to heal. Probably has to heal through killing or pillaging.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

As long as its limited to an optional mode in a DLC, then I am totally cool with it......just as with the Apocalypse Mode. I find it kind of funny that nobody complained about the "Soothsayer" unit from May, yet have a massive issue with Vampires in the July Update .

 

[Kupe Navigator]

All other military units can be captured or killed by combat itself. My understanding is the vampire unit doesn't die or get captured no matter how many times it is attacked and by how strong the force.

It can...? I mean it can escape if it has 1 HP but once it is attacked again it will die?

 

[Greywulf]

Not a fan of Lovecraftian horror or vampires, and that sort of thing has no place in a Civilization game anyway, being that it is supposed to be based on real history. I'm really hoping that these vampires are separate DLC that I wouldn't have to buy to get other content that I'd like ~ would be very annoyed if they are attached to the Ethiopia DLC, for instance (Ethiopia looks so good, and I've been wanting Ethiopia from the start, but this would ruin it for me). I've already made up my mind not to buy the Secret Societies DLC when it comes out. If the Devs want to make fantasy/occult elements for the game, my request is to keep them as separate and entirely optional DLC that never is attached to the core game (On that note, I don't like it how the Apostles call lightning from the sky...there, I said it).

I can appreciate a little Sci-Fi though in this context, such as when your civilization has reached future techs. I think a measure of poetic licence in building on future possibilities should be welcome, though within reason; I wouldn't be supportive of adding alien civilizations to the game, but I would be in favor of colonizing Luna and Mars.

It's very disappointing that after finding out that they are adding a bunch of new content to the game, they chose this path to go down rather than important areas that they desperately need to go down, as has been the request of the fans for literally years now: i.e. to improve upon the AI and diplomacy...Barbarians are an ideal candidate for this, with so much untapped potential, it's amazing to me that they are leaving them as mindless attack bots! Now that is disappointing, and a let down to the true fans on this game series. This game is already fantastically complex in the other areas, but still sits wanting in such obvious and essential areas.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Not a fan of Lovecraftian horror or vampires, and that sort of thing has no place in a Civilization game anyway, being that it is supposed to be based on real history. I'm really hoping that these vampires are separate DLC that I wouldn't have to buy to get other content that I'd like ~ would be very annoyed if they are attached to the Ethiopia DLC, for instance (Ethiopia looks so good, and I've been wanting Ethiopia from the start, but this would ruin it for me). I've already made up my mind not to buy the Secret Societies DLC when it comes out. If the Devs want to make fantasy/occult elements for the game, my request is to keep them as separate and entirely optional DLC that never is attached to the core game (On that note, I don't like it how the Apostles call lightning from the sky...there, I said it).

I can appreciate a little Sci-Fi though in this context, such as when your civilization has reached future techs. I think a measure of poetic licence in building on future possibilities should be welcome, though within reason; I wouldn't be supportive of adding alien civilizations to the game, but I would be in favor of colonizing Luna and Mars.

It's very disappointing that after finding out that they are adding a bunch of new content to the game, they chose this path to go down rather than important areas that they desperately need to go down, as has been the request of the fans for literally years now: i.e. to improve upon the AI and diplomacy...Barbarians are an ideal candidate for this, with so much untapped potential, it's amazing to me that they are leaving them as mindless attack bots! Now that is disappointing, and a let down to the true fans on this game series. This game is already fantastically complex in the other areas, but still sits wanting in such obvious and essential areas.

Why hate on little mythological things?
You don't have to play secret society you know. Devs said it is OPTIONAL thing